Big Party Plans Page 8

Give me a rifle and put me in the room with a gunman or suicide bomber seconds before he acts and I'll shoot the bastard without a second thought.

As long as you know he's a gunman/bomber fair enough, but the problem when people start taking things into their own hands is it becomes no better than a witch hunt and people often get it wrong.

You need to correct your definition of murder; it's not always murder when someone kills another human being.

Killing a suicide bomber before he detonates isn't murder.

Killing a burglar in your home isn't murder.

Killing an enemy during wartime is not murder.

Accidentally killing someone isn't murder.

I think I already pulled myself up on this one.

You're wrong. But they're just as happy to kill fellow Muslims, so they're equal opportunity terrorists.

Am I? Well thanks for letting me know. Pretty much like an American troop wiping out a family of Iraqis then blowing up a British transport for good measure. Good to know that equal opportunity is so widespread!

Quote: Moonstone @ November 8 2009, 5:17 PM GMT

What does this even mean? It was bad in one instant cos there weren't as many?

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More that when people fear a giant conspiracy of Jews they are foolish.

When they fear several large countries with or well on the way to having WMDs. Not to mention invading each other, funding terrorism and murdering Christians.

Just I dunno in the greater scheme of things we Jews aren't much threat comparatively. Except to Palestinians and frankly they're the chavs of the Middle East and no one except some Guardian readers like them.

Quote: DaButt @ November 8 2009, 5:05 PM GMT

Killing a suicide bomber before he detonates isn't murder.

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Not even if he is a Brazilian electrician. According to the CPS anyway.

Quote: DaButt @ November 8 2009, 5:05 PM GMT

Killing a burglar in your home isn't murder.

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How about if he is a British tourist coming to your door to ask for directions?

Quote: DaButt @ November 8 2009, 5:05 PM GMT

Killing an enemy during wartime is not murder.

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Sometimes whole villages become classified as the enemy.

Quote: DaButt @ November 8 2009, 5:05 PM GMT

Accidentally killing someone isn't murder.

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Are we referring to the accidental deaths of Brazilian electricians, British tourists, anyone a soldier decides is the enemy, etc?

Quote: sootyj @ November 8 2009, 5:56 PM GMT

More that when people fear a giant conspiracy of Jews they are foolish.

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This is what will ultimately allow zog to triumph mwah hahaaa!

When they fear several large countries with or well on the way to having WMDs. Not to mention invading each other, funding terrorism and murdering Christians.

My soul is just too weary and forlorn to touch upon this. So I'll just do some quote fingers and say 'what-everrrr' instead.

Just I dunno in the greater scheme of things we Jews aren't much threat comparatively. Except to Palestinians and frankly they're the chavs of the Middle East and no one except some Guardian readers like them.

You might be surprised at just how many people hold the Jews responsible for a lot of the bad that's going on in the world at present, but I suspect you're probably not. I don't think Mel Gibson was speaking only for himself. Powerhouses like the Rockefellers, btw, seem to represent all Jews, in much the same way one or two people who happen to be muslim are representative of their entire religion and its followers. A hell of a lot of people hold the Jews responsible for many atrocities with a body pile far higher than the muslims have yet managed.

Quote: JohnnyD @ November 8 2009, 5:23 PM GMT

It is where I come from. (Haply on the Wold, near Royal Windsor.)

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Self-protection is an absolute right. If your government has taken that right away from you then you should demand that it be returned.

Quote: Timbo @ November 8 2009, 6:20 PM GMT

1) Not even if he is a Brazilian electrician. According to the CPS anyway.

2) How about if he is a British tourist coming to your door to ask for directions?

3) Sometimes whole villages become classified as the enemy.

4) Are we referring to the accidental deaths of Brazilian electricians, British tourists, anyone a soldier decides is the enemy, etc?

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1) It was not a murder unless the cops knew he was not a terrorist and shot him with full knowledge that he was an unarmed innocent. That's not to say that the cops didn't make mistakes and shouldn't be held accountable, but it's not murder.

2) A stranger who knocks on my door and asks for directions will receive directions and a friendly handshake. A stranger who kicks down my door will receive something much more unpleasant.

3) Assuming you're talking about current military operations in Iraq and Afghanistan, I would hope you're aware of the tremendous amount of planning and verification which takes place before targets are struck. They always err on the side of caution and many coalition troops are dead because of it. But it's the right thing to do. Mistakes are made, but they are not murders if they were unintentional.

4) A philosophy professor spent an entire class lecturing us about the difference between murder and killing. It all comes down to intent and, to a certain extent, the law.

So there is nothing wrong with a climate of hysteria in which innocent people get killed, so long as it does not meet the legal (and philosophical) definition of murder? I feel comforted.

Quote: Timbo @ November 8 2009, 7:27 PM GMT

So there is nothing wrong with a climate of hysteria in which innocent people get killed, so long as it does not meet the legal (and philosophical) definition of murder? I feel comforted.

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Exactly the point I was trying to make, but not a quarter so eloquently.

Quote: Timbo @ November 8 2009, 7:27 PM GMT

So there is nothing wrong with a climate of hysteria in which innocent people get killed, so long as it does not meet the legal (and philosophical) definition of murder? I feel comforted.

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One person got killed in error, in what 3 years in the whole country? That is not a climate of fear, unless you are terminally cowardly with a spastic colon.

I prefer being cautious about the police to being fearful of armed thugs.

I think this was meant to be a hypothetical situation/question, Joel.

We'd all like to live in a world where all criminals receive proper punishment, all innocent people are protected, all laws are fair and judges, juries, cops and soldiers never make a mistake, but we're all human and therefore prone to mistakes and bad judgment.

All we can hope for is that every effort will be made to ensure that problems are corrected whenever the are discovered. I'm sure that millions of pounds were spent, thousands of pages were typed and thousands of hours of training were conducted in response to the shooting of the Brazilian guy. They won't stop it from happening again, but we have to hope that the changes put in place will lead to it happening less frequently. Strive for perfection, but never expect to actually achieve it.

I think it was a response to point1.

Besides I think we should be using the army instead of the police in areas like Hackney.

Quote: sootyj @ November 8 2009, 7:35 PM GMT

One person got killed in error, in what 3 years in the whole country? That is not a climate of fear, unless you are terminally cowardly with a spastic colon.

I prefer being cautious about the police to being fearful of armed thugs.

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There was f**king climate of hysteria when Menezes got shot.

And if there is no f**king climate of hysteria how come this c**tish Government has succeeded in passing a series of laws eroding civil liberties? I know no-one personally who has been threatened by armed thugs, but I know a few people who have been harrassed by the police using their new powers.

So then, is serving punch at a party now considered rather passe? Likewise, is throwing a lavish dinner party just a sign of bourgeois boasting, which doesn't really suit the current "age of austerity"? Has being "fashionably late" always actually just meant being rude and discourteous to one's host?

Quote: Timbo @ November 8 2009, 7:48 PM GMT

There was f**king climate of hysteria when Menezes got shot.

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Can you blame people for being nervous? Eight bombs in two weeks on trains and buses which transport millions of people each day. And who was responsible for the nervous climate? A bunch of Islamic terrorists who did exactly what they wanted to do: kill and terrorize non-Muslims.

Cheesy footballs - this year's retro party must-have? Party invitations via email - whatever happened to the personal touch?