Ask the BSG as they are smart Page 7

Quote: RubyMae - Glamourous Snowdrop at Large @ November 1 2009, 11:36 AM BST

You are talking to a girl who lived for many years smack bang next to a lake with swans and geese and ducks that the whole family took care of. I said they "normally" mate for life because I know some do split and find new mates (On the nearby pond, the female flew off and brought back a younger mate so we saved the older one who was too elderly and knackered to fly off to a new home) but many do mate for life and my swany friends from the lake are still together. Until you have a pair of swans cross a football pitch with their cygnets every day to travel to your back door for their breakfast, had sick cygnets in your bath tub, and you are known by the neighbours as "that crazy Swan family" ,there is very little you can tell me about swans!

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Lumme!

Sorry, Roo, I did just realise you wrote "normally". I shall from now on bow to your superior knowledge as 'Queen of the Swans'.

Quote: Tim Walker @ November 1 2009, 11:26 AM BST

Hate to break it to you, Roo, but that is now considered somewhat of a myth. Researchers have looked into it and found that not only do swans often get "divorced", they did DNA tests on their chicks and found out that, basically, some of the "married" swans have been putting-out all over the riverbank.

(Bizarrely, this subject forms part of my latest script.)

Very, very few animals (mostly some species of birds) actually mate for life, in fact.

Hope this isn't too upsetting.

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I cannot comment on the instance of adultery, but studies have shown the divorce rate among mute swans to be around 6%, and less than 1% for Bewick's and whoopers. Birds who maintain pair bonds when over-wintering are able to command better feeding sites, particularly if offspring stay with them as a family group, and therefore begin the breeding season in better physical condition, resulting in higher reproductive success. Monogamy is evolutionarily adaptive, as it is in humans, whose young stand a higher survival chance with two parents. In humans the mechanism that evolved for holding the pairbond together is what we call 'love'. Evolution is quite economical, so it is reasonable to assume that swans (and geese and Manadarin ducks) also maintain pairbonds by what we would call 'love'.

Quote: Tim Walker @ November 1 2009, 11:41 AM BST

Lumme!

Sorry, Roo, I did just realise you wrote "normally". I shall from now on bow to your superior knowledge as 'Queen of the Swans'.

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I remember the cygnet in the bath because it crapped all over my Dad which I found very funny. He was so poorly and we had to wait for the people from Stover to collect him so he was sat in the bath tub for a couple of hours before having a kip in a cardboard box on the kitchen table. I have a pic which I shall now have to bring with me to a meet! His name was Kermit.

I suppose spiders also stay together for life, seeing as female sometimes eats the male. On the first date as well, lucky git

I have a lake complete with black swans and other water fowl about 50 metres from door. Mr Dagger is ultimately responsible for their welfare. Some swan pairs have had to be fixed up with new partners.

Quote: Leevil @ November 1 2009, 11:45 AM BST

I suppose spiders also stay together for life, seeing as female sometimes eats the male. On the first date as well, lucky git

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Well they are together for at least three days....

Quote: Dolly Dagger @ November 1 2009, 11:46 AM BST

I have a lake complete with black swans and other water fowl about 50 metres from door. Mr Dagger is ultimately responsible for their welfare. Some swan pairs have had to be fixed up with new partners.

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You can hand feed a swan but only if you have built a relationship with them and they trust you. Otherwise it's best avoided because they can be nasty little buggers plus if you are not quick enough, they nip.

"She's a Killer Queen
Gunpowder, Gelatine
Dynamite with a laser beam
Guaranteed to blow your mind"

Shouldn't that be Gunpowder, Gelignite? Or was the Killer Queen planning to do some baking?

And another thing...how would you describe colours to a blind man? "Well, it's sort of...greeny." ??

Quote: Tim Walker @ November 1 2009, 11:29 AM BST

It may be reasonable, but there's not much evidence to support that. Any signs of emotional behaviour tends to be linked to the intelligence of the species. The ability of true emotional awareness is linked to self-awareness, which is rare beyond humans.

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It is some years since I read Joseph Le Doux The Emotional Brain, but my understanding was that neurological science supported the somatic model of emotions, i.e. that they are essentially bodily responses rather than judgemental ones.

For an interesting insight into animal emotion, I suggest Animals in Translation by Temple Gradin, the autistic animal welfare expert.

As for awareness, yes humans are aware of their emotions but that does not change the nature of the emotions of themselves. It is much like the evidence that choices precede conscious decision. Humans are animals that rationalise, not rational animals.

Quote: Lee Henman @ November 1 2009, 12:00 PM BST

Shouldn't that be Gunpowder, Gelignite? Or was the Killer Queen planning to do some baking?

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I think the salient point here is that 'Gelatine' rhymes with 'Queen'. See?

Quote: Lee Henman @ November 1 2009, 12:00 PM BST

Shouldn't that be Gunpowder, Gelignite? Or was the Killer Queen planning to do some baking?

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Quote: Lee Henman @ November 1 2009, 12:00 PM BST

And another thing...how would you describe colours to a blind man? "Well, it's sort of...greeny." ??

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Have you ever seen the film "Mask"? It's about a boy who is born with a condition that leaves him deformed and Cher is his mother. Anyway, in one scene, he is trying to show a girl he likes who is blind from birth what colours and other discriptive words were by feeling them. He gives her something hot to hold and tells her that is red and as it cools it's orange, and gives her something cold telling her that is blue, and it goes on. I thought it was clever and sweet!

Quote: Timbo @ November 1 2009, 12:00 PM BST

It is some years since I read Joseph Le Doux The Emotional Brain, but my understanding was that neurological science supported the somatic model of emotions, i.e. that they are essentially bodily responses rather than judgemental ones.

For an interesting insight into animal emotion, I suggest Animals in Translation by Temple Gradin, the autistic animal welfare expert.

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I would say that the somatic experience of emotion is intrinsically linked to the ability to "intellectualise" the emotion, but it's a very interesting area anyway. It leads on to whether the somatic experience of "pain" is independent of the ability to process the idea of "pain". Anyway, thanks for the recommendation, I need to go a book-shopping soon.

Quote: Griff @ November 1 2009, 12:10 PM BST

I love the way you're assuming Freddie Mercury was pigshit-thick rather than wondering if maybe, just maybe, there was a good reason for using that word.

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Thank you, Griff.

To be fair, he thought he was going slightly mad.

Quote: Tim Walker @ November 1 2009, 12:09 PM BST

It leads on to whether the somatic experience of "pain" is independent of the ability to process the idea of "pain".

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Yes I almost mentioned that - the angler's dilemna! As you say, an interesting area.