Quote: Tim Walker @ October 31 2009, 2:27 AM BSTI think that the development of religious belief was the price human beings paid when evolution gave us self-awareness.
If only evolution had given us a second cock instead, so much trouble could have been saved.
Quote: Timbo @ October 31 2009, 2:44 AM BSTIf only evolution had given us a second cock instead, so much trouble could have been saved.
Quote: Tim Walker @ October 31 2009, 2:40 AM BSTMy favourite afterlife line though, is that of Arthur Dent when he and the gang think they have died, but have actually been transported to the Restaurant At The End Of The Universe. Noting the plush, five-star surroundings, he says "It's not really the afterlife, more sort of an 'après vie'."
That's brilliant! I think I may have been too young to appreciate it when I read it, but that's a quality line.
Quote: sootyj @ October 30 2009, 9:44 PM BSTYou know what I can't stand about school boy patriotism, is it's purile and dull.
Churchill's Fight them on the Beaches Speech, is more powerful in contrast to Chamberin's peace in our times. Trafalgar is more stirring when contrasted against Napoleon's dominance of Europe.
I love my country truly. Yours seems more the uncertain passion of Peter Andre for Jordan.
I couldn't disagree more - It seems to be you making up pictures in your head of what you want me to be like. I gave one example of why I see GB as great, and that had nothing to do with militarism or schoolboy jingoism. I stated that it has given a home and an oppotrunity for people to have a reasonable life and express themselves in freedom - whan many countries still don't give that.
Then you say you truly love your country - so why did you spend the previous two pages knocking it at every opportunity? I'm sorry you seem to want it everyway, and just want to see off the 'types' you have conjured in your mind as being repugnant, jingoistic and illiberal. If anyone has a schoolboy attitude about these matters it is you.
You've gone down one track and stuck to it, ignoring many of the points about how Britain fought for political freedom from religious superstates, continually condemn Britain's 'selected' actions in the past, but still end up saying you truly love your country. How the bleedin heck did you arrive at that one?
Good morning BTW.
Quote: Alfred J Kipper @ October 31 2009, 10:03 AM BSTYou've gone down one track and stuck to it, ignoring many of the points about how Britain fought for political freedom from religious superstates,
Oh c'mon we love Saudi but hated Iraq (secular). Like all countries are foreign policy is nicely dressed up opportunism.
Quote: Alfred J Kipper @ October 31 2009, 10:03 AM BSTI stated that it has given a home and an oppotrunity for people to have a reasonable life and express themselves in freedom - whan many countries still don't give that.
Well yes that is noble and worthy. It's a shame some feel so defensive about sharing these gifts.
Quote: Alfred J Kipper @ October 31 2009, 10:03 AM BSTcontinually condemn Britain's 'selected' actions in the past,
An empire that dominated 2 thirds of the world and contributed to the complete disintegration of one continent, not to mention near total genocides. Is not being selected, it's akin to defneding Peter Sutcliffe because he was a good truck driver.
Kippling one of my favourite authors seems to be able to see the light and dark, whilst being a patriot to the core.
Quote: Tim Walker @ October 31 2009, 2:07 AM BSTWhy do Islamic extremists, even those living in a secular European society, call for "beheading" for those who are perceived to have insulted the Prophet, rather than for an imprisonment or a simple apology? Why is there such a lust for violence?
I suppose Islam hasn't had its enlightenment yet, but there are many liberal scholars with in it working towards it.
As for brutality and savagery, I suspect that maybe more to do with some cultures than faiths. Saudi and Somalia seem to have always had a rather high asshole content.
Quote: Tim Walker @ October 31 2009, 1:49 AM BSTIn places like Somalia (less than 1% Christian) the West has tried to help, understand, be tolerant and help the Sunni Muslims see that fighting each other has achieved nothing.
Well it would help if we stopped nicking their fish.
The Islamic courts thee (a fundmanetalist Islamic sect), were doing rather well at persuading groups to talk to each other. The CIA are widely suspected of undermining them as they were scared they might go AQ.
Well, I would say it might nowdays be more a case of a lot of folk being fed up with so many coming in now and just taking full advantage of it, and bringing their own cultural baggage with them and refusing to give it up - while benefiting from the kind of freedom they wouldn't even get in their own country.
For me, that somes up how a naturally placid and mild mannered populace has got so worked up, that growing little sections of it have started voting for unusually radical political parties. There HAS to be a limit to how far this good will to all newcomers and sharing our freedoms and living space will go. It cannot, logically, be infinite, or the warning words of EP are bound to come true.
Joel I never realised I agree with you so much about almost everything. You're just about the only rational person in this thread.
Quote: Moonstone @ October 31 2009, 10:50 AM BSTJoel I never realised I agree with you so much about almost everything. You're just about the only rational person in this thread.
You had me at hello! The thing that depresses me is look on these forums and see how far it's all moved to the right in the last year alone.
Quote: Alfred J Kipper @ October 31 2009, 10:50 AM BSTWell, I would say it might nowdays be more a case of a lot of folk being fed up with so many coming in now and just taking full advantage of it, and bringing their own cultural baggage with them and refusing to give it up - while benefiting from the kind of freedom they wouldn't even get in their own country.
Would that be?
1 Key workers bringing vital skills invited under our Oz style points system (e.g. you can't come in if we don't need you).
2 2nd or 3rd generation of Commonwealth citizens invited by earlier governments for similar reasons.
3 EU workers who by and large have no interest in retiring here(but pay our taxes thank you very much)
4 Hongkong and Ugandan refugees begrudingly invited after our foreign policy made their homes untennable.
5 Nepalese, Carribean, Fijian etc exmembers of the armed forces.
6 Legal foreign students paying way more than native students and underwriting our whole university system.
Or is it that rather small number of illegal workers and assylum seekers. Who get no benefits, little access to health and education. And more and more quickly a quick trip out of the country.
Quote: Moonstone @ October 31 2009, 10:50 AM BSTJoel I never realised I agree with you so much about almost everything. You're just about the only rational person in this thread.
Oh come on, Ian, for "rational" you mean that you and Joel share similar opinions. You can't label others "irrational" for holding some perfectly valid, but different, opinions on a very complex issue. 
Your arguments are incredibly one sided and in some cases very dubious.
1 That points based system you keep referring to is one that's hardly had the ink dry on it. Our pathetic govt panicked and rushed this borrowed policy through parialment when they realised they had upset the majority of their electorate with a seriously damaging, long standing, virtual open door policy on immigration.
3 That is a wild assumption to support your narrow beliefs - how do you know the EU workers have no intention of settling or retiring here? I can guarentee you that many, many of the ones I've seen posting on dating or friends websites state very honestly that they DO intend to stay. And the ones that don't intend to, don't add to our economy because they send the money back home to their waiting families. And do you know how many British workers they've put out of work, or effectively virtually halved their wages since they've been here?
6 Legal foreign students paying way more for uni fees - and then, many of them (it's impossible to know the number - a minister recently admitted we have have lost count on the student visa ins and outs because the system can no longer cope with the workload) illegaly outstaying their visa dates and slipping into the rapidly growing vast black hole of illegal immigrants we have.
Tell me please where you bought your rose tinted glasses with added blind spots from and I'll rush off to buy a pair right now. Because I am fed up with the harsh reality that I keep seeing, believe me.
Quote: Tim Walker @ October 31 2009, 11:45 AM BSTYou can't label others "irrational" for holding some perfectly valid, but different, opinions on a very complex issue.
No, I can't - not for the 'valid', substantiated, and informed arguments anyway! But that's half the trouble...
Quote: Alfred J Kipper @ October 31 2009, 11:56 AM BSTYour arguments are incredibly one sided and in some cases very dubious.
1 That points based system you keep referring to is one that's hardly had the ink dry on it.
It was a response to industries asking for more help in filling skills gaps. The door wasn't open prior to this, I've had chums in the 1960s who were being questioned about their marriages. I believe in the 50s the door was shut on automatic citizenship for Commonwealth citizens (a necessary measure).
Quote: Alfred J Kipper @ October 31 2009, 11:56 AM BSTY
3 That is a wild assumption to support your narrow beliefs - how do you know the EU workers have no intention of settling or retiring here? I can guarentee you that many, many of the ones I've seen posting on dating or friends websites state very honestly that they DO intend to stay. And the ones that don't intend to, don't add to our economy because they send the money back home to their waiting families. And do you know how many British workers they've put out of work, or effectively virtually halved their wages since they've been here?
Well they pay rent/taxes/good services so they do add to the economy.
And the simple statistic is they do go home. What ever they may stick up on which ever message board you choose to lurk on.
As for British workers out of work? If the solution was turfing lazy British workers out of beds/call center jobs/useless degrees I'd see that as a small price for less immigration.
I recruit for a number of different posts in the care industry and I'd love to see more Brits go for these often well paid jobs. I also wish more Brits would train as social workers, SALTS, OTs, GPs etc. But I'd rather have an immigrant doing these jobs than no one.
Quote: Moonstone @ October 31 2009, 12:29 PM BSTNo, I can't - not for the 'valid', substantiated, and informed arguments anyway! But that's half the trouble...
Well it occurs to me that certain people like to argue political and social theory as a substitute for addressing the reality of the world. As though a theory is enough to win the argument, without the need to offer any practical solutions. There's two very good places for people who can comfortably spout political theory, safe in the knowledge that they will never actually have to be judged on practical policy, the Liberal Democrats and the Socialist Workers Party. 
Quote: Alfred J Kipper @ October 31 2009, 11:56 AM BSTYour arguments are incredibly one sided and in some cases very dubious.
6 Legal foreign students paying way more for uni fees - and then, many of them (it's impossible to know the number - a minister recently admitted we have have lost count on the student visa ins and outs because the system can no longer cope with the workload) illegaly outstaying their visa dates and slipping into the rapidly growing vast black hole of illegal immigrants we have.
And where as there may be little statisitcal info on the number, the assylum and immigration service are quite efficent at sending them home. We have to question why are university system is so dependent on them. Personally using foreigners to underwrite low grade native degrees is silly. Especially when more nad more students are functionally illiterate.
Part the reason we don't have an EXCHANGE of skills with Europe is or workers are monolingual, unskilled and by and large less able than other Europeans in their native tongue.
Quote: Alfred J Kipper @ October 31 2009, 11:56 AM BSTTell me please where you bought your rose tinted glasses with added blind spots from and I'll rush off to buy a pair right now. Because I am fed up with the harsh reality that I keep seeing, believe me.
Rosy Tints glasses next door on Notting Hill to Shit's brain tonic emporium.
I saw Nick Griffin popping in there the other day for his daily Shit for Brains.
Quote: Tim Walker @ October 31 2009, 12:37 PM BSTWell it occurs to me that certain people like to argue political and social theory as a substitute for addressing the reality of the world. As though a theory is enough to win the argument, without the need to offer any practical solutions. There's two very good places for people who can comfortably spout political theory, safe in the knowledge that they will never actually have to be judged on practical policy, the Liberal Democrats and the Socialist Workers Party.
Lay off those LibDems they have some great policies on owls.
Quote: sootyj @ October 31 2009, 12:42 PM BSTPart the reason we don't have an EXCHANGE of skills with Europe is or workers are monolingual, unskilled and by and large less able than other Europeans in their native tongue.
That is not only incredibly patronising and insulting, Joel, it is also untrue. There are tens of thousands skilled British workers, recruited due their specialist abilities in engineering, science, business, communications, construction... ad infinitum, working in other EU countries (and all around the world) as we speak. Silly talk.