Nick Griffin on Question Time Page 38

Quote: Tim Walker @ October 30 2009, 11:31 PM BST

Exactly how is this a big error, Kevin? I spent a lot of time growing up studying both the Old and New Testaments, so please tell where the Old Testament advocates conversion to a belief in God through state control?

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I'm not sure it says that specifically. My understanding is that the Pentateuch at least was written as if for a stateless people.

But I recall that that the OT spends quite a lot of time advocating the slaughter of the unbelievers. That could be considered a form of extremist state control.

The First Commandment is also quite telling. The creator of the universe wants us to know that our first priority is not having any other gods.

Quote: Kevin Murphy @ October 30 2009, 11:40 PM BST

But I recall that that the OT spends quite a lot of time advocating the slaughter of the unbelievers. That could be considered a form of extremist state control.

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It reports a lot of smiting perhaps, but tell me where it advocates it on God's behalf. It's like blaming the newspaper reporting a murder for the actions of the murderer.

Quote: Kevin Murphy @ October 30 2009, 11:40 PM BST

The First Commandment is also quite telling. The creator of the universe wants us to know that our first priority is not having any other gods.

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To be fair, I don't think there are any major world religions that give you a part-time option in which God(s) you can believe in if you follow its instruction. The important thing, as before, is that nowhere does it state that it is a job of a believer in Judaism or Christianity to force belief in the non-believers through oppression, state control or via the threat of death.

Of course a lot of the problems in the world in general are related to interpretation of religion at a tribal level, but harping back to the Crusades etc as a defence for the mess of failed Islamic states is nonsense. It is the 21st century and these people are still cutting each other's heads off for the sake of a twisted religion and to control shit-hole bits of f**king desert. I simply can't equate where Islam is with where other world religions are. They all have their faults, but Islam is causing the most suffering. And not to the West, to its own believers and the non-believers who have to live alongside them.

I don't for a minute doubt there are nice, liberal, tolerant Muslims throughout the world. The problem is that where by-and-large where Islam has breached the secular nature of state, it tends to show no real intention on being any more progressive than it was in the 14th Century.

Quote: Tim Walker @ October 30 2009, 11:44 PM BST

It reports a lot of smiting perhaps, but tell me where it advocates it on God's behalf. It's like blaming the newspaper reporting a murder for the actions of the murderer.

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Isn't all of the genocide reported in the Bible supposedly conducted on god's behalf?

Quote: Kevin Murphy @ October 30 2009, 11:53 PM BST

Isn't all of the genocide reported in the Bible supposedly conducted on god's behalf?

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No. It's reported where various sides say that their victories were won on God's behalf, but I don't remember seeing anywhere where God requests killing in His Name. Going back to the Ten Commandments, He seems quite against that actually.

Quote: Tim Walker @ October 30 2009, 11:56 PM BST

No. It's reported where various sides say that their victories were won on God's behalf, but I don't remember seeing anywhere where God requests killing in His Name. Going back to the Ten Commandments, He seems quite against that actually.

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Might I recommend reading Exodus and all that stuff with the Kings. Old Testament God was into slavery, sacrifice and war.

I think we always forget with Islamists that more than a calipahte they want to embarrass and alienate Westernized Muslims. Like turning up your kids nativity pissed to embarrass the ex wife.

As for Islamic rulings most of these Islamist preachers are shockingly ignorant about their own faith. One of the big criticism of some smaller Sharia courts in the UK was the preachers only had 1 or 2 religious texts.

Quote: Tim Walker @ October 30 2009, 11:56 PM BST

No. It's reported where various sides say that their victories were won on God's behalf, but I don't remember seeing anywhere where God requests killing in His Name. Going back to the Ten Commandments, He seems quite against that actually.

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I think I see where you're coming from. But there's quite a lot of people who believe the Bible is a Holy book, a template from which to shape their lives, etc. Having a Chosen People going on a big killy rapey orgy in a Holy book certainly implies it was endorsed, even if just a little bit, by him upstairs.

Quote: sootyj @ October 31 2009, 12:13 AM BST

Might I recommend reading Exodus and all that stuff with the Kings. Old Testament God was into slavery, sacrifice and war.

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I would take issue with the interpretation of Exodus as describing the will and opinions of God rather than describing events involved. The Old Testament God, famously, made a mockery of the idea of sacrifice as a reasonable price of faith via the example of Abraham preparing to sacrifice his son. You'll have to remind me where God was "into slavery"...

But anyway, how does the Old Testament begin to justify why in the 21st century we tolerate a religion that insists that politics is run according to its will, leading to stonings, beheadings, amputations, rape, cliteroidectomies, forced marriages, general oppression of women, justification for terrorism and murder etc.

How does quoting the bad examples of hundreds of years ago by other religions defend current practices. Other religions (whatever one thinks of them) have progressed, albeit with difficulty, to the point where moderation and a non-practice of the religion is the norm. Where has Islam shown its progression, modernisation and moves towards liberalism?

Quote: Kevin Murphy @ October 31 2009, 12:15 AM BST

I think I see where you're coming from. But there's quite a lot of people who believe the Bible is a Holy book, a template from which to shape their lives, etc. Having a Chosen People going on a big killy rapey orgy in a Holy book certainly implies it was endorsed, even if just a little bit, by him upstairs.

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But, as I have just posted, even if that interpretation is correct, that religion has (though not perfectly) progressed. I don't see how the books of the Old Testament are any kind of justification for the outrages of certain modern religions today.

Quote: Tim Walker @ October 30 2009, 11:47 PM BST

Of course a lot of the problems in the world in general are related to interpretation of religion at a tribal level, but harping back to the Crusades etc as a defence for the mess of failed Islamic states is nonsense. It is the 21st century and these people are still cutting each other's heads off for the sake of a twisted religion and to control shit-hole bits of f**king desert. I simply can't equate where Islam is with where other world religions are. They all have their faults, but Islam is causing the most suffering. And not to the West, to its own believers and the non-believers who have to live alongside them.

I don't for a minute doubt there are nice, liberal, tolerant Muslims throughout the world. The problem is that where by-and-large where Islam has breached the secular nature of state, it tends to show no real intention on being any more progressive than it was in the 14th Century.

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And rather less progressive than where it was in the twelfth century, when the Moslems were living and let live, and the Crusaders were the ones doing all the damage. Which is rather the point. I can't be arsed to study religious texts, because frankly I am not interested, it is all fairy tales, but I very much doubt Islam, based on its holy texts, is much better or worse than Christianity. The problem is how it is spun. If Papist burning Protestants can morph down the centuries into wishy washy Anglicans, I daresay the potential is there for Islam to be re-imagined in the same way. What we need to look at is why that isn't happening. I would suggest that part of the reason is that the idealistic young, who should be rebelling against the constraints imposed on them by their religion, have not been doing so because they have instead been radicalised by the Crusade on Terror. (And anyone who thinks the Crusades hold no modern resonance need only ask an Arab what he thinks of the wonderfully chosen Bushism.)

Quote: Tim Walker @ October 31 2009, 12:27 AM BST

But anyway, how does the Old Testament begin to justify why in the 21st century we tolerate a religion that insists that politics is run according to its will, leading to stonings, beheadings, amputations, rape, cliteroidectomies, forced marriages, general oppression of women, justification for terrorism and murder etc.

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Colleague of mine was genitally mutilated she was Christian, it was just a tradition in her tribe.

In the OT there are 613 commandments with many prescribing the death sentence; from gayness to cheeking your mum and dad.

All religions say silly things, it's kinda the point. The question is what you do with the info.

Hinduism and Shinto faiths are generally progressive and humane theologically. Except both have been the inspiration for fairly large scale murder.

In honour killings the term Izzit is usually used for honour. This isn't strictly an Asian term more a tribal/Pashtun term.

Quote: Tim Walker @ October 30 2009, 11:47 PM BST

They all have their faults, but Islam is causing the most suffering.

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If one goes to piss poor Nigeria you will find; a Muslim bit, a Christian bit and an Animist bit. The Muslim bit is full on Sharia, stones rape victims to death bans vaccinations etc. Wankers basically.

The Christian bit kills kids for being demon posessed. Horribly and brutally.
Organised by evangelists who make a fortune out of it.

The animist carries out human sacrifices. Often for money like buying insurance for your new business.

So 3 diferent faiths with the same people all acting like evil hearted savages out of the worst horror movies. But 3 distinct faiths.

Oh and all 3 sides cheerfully kill each other.

The thing that links them is all the believers are horribly poor, deeply superstitious and incredibly ignorant. These are the reasons for religious brutality. The Islamists in the West are a rather nasty minority, who like the LIbDems don't really repreent anyone/

Quote: Timbo @ October 31 2009, 12:32 AM BST

I would suggest that part of the reason is that the idealistic young, who should be rebelling against the constraints imposed on them by their religion, have not been doing so because they have instead been radicalised by the Crusade on Terror.

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I think that's a very interesting re-ordering of history to suit your hypothesis. There was anti-West terrorism before 2001 and Muslisms and Islamic states have been happily killing non-Muslims for years without any motivating Western factors.

The problem again is that state and religion simply don't mix. If your local vicar tells everyone that God wants you to go and kill some foreigners because they are aren't Christians, very few are going to take that seriously as a cause. If the vicar's church controls politics, living standards, the legal system and basically imposes their will (directly or indirectly) on how you can live your life, you naturally become a bit more beholden to their views on who you should be killing. It is then not just a cause for your beliefs as a good believer, it is a national and tribal policy for the advancement of "your people", believers or otherwise.

Islam is a stinking f**king mess of a religion, no two ways of getting around it. As I hold no religious beliefs I have no great sympathy for any of the world religions, but Islam is causing the most inhuman suffering, so it's the one I'd wipe off the face of the planet first.

Religious terrorists and militia (of any flavour) are the biggest, thickest bunch of f**king losers on the planet. The Yorkshire Ripper says that "God told me" to kill prostitutes, we rightly diagnose him a psychopath, stick him in Broadmoor and let the psychiatrists/psychologists prod him to see what makes him tick. A religious fundamentalist say that "God told me" to kill non-believers and we wring our trying to understand why it must be a reasonable thing to believe.

I won't come out and crap on all Muslims it's stupid. But one thing the far right and the liberal left is an unwillingness to critically view Islam. In the same way saying all Muslims are terrorists is stupid. So is saying Niqarbs et al are part of someone's culture and should be respected.

I agree with Tim (EDIT -- a few posts ago), but I would extend it to all religions.

It's true that some religious doctrines contain more dangerous ideas than others (Islam vs Jainism for example), but I would say that religious belief itself is the problem. It will, probably indirectly, kill us all, eventually.

Except non-religious views aren't much better.

Nazism, communism etc.

Quote: sootyj @ October 31 2009, 12:42 AM BST

Colleague of mine was genitally mutilated she was Christian, it was just a tradition in her tribe.

In the OT there are 613 commandments with many prescribing the death sentence; from gayness to cheeking your mum and dad.

All religions say silly things, it's kinda the point. The question is what you do with the info.

Hinduism and Shinto faiths are generally progressive and humane theologically. Except both have been the inspiration for fairly large scale murder.

In honour killings the term Izzit is usually used for honour. This isn't strictly an Asian term more a tribal/Pashtun term.

If one goes to piss poor Nigeria you will find; a Muslim bit, a Christian bit and an Animist bit. The Muslim bit is full on Sharia, stones rape victims to death bans vaccinations etc. Wankers basically.

The Christian bit kills kids for being demon posessed. Horribly and brutally.
Organised by evangelists who make a fortune out of it.

The animist carries out human sacrifices. Often for money like buying insurance for your new business.

So 3 diferent faiths with the same people all acting like evil hearted savages out of the worst horror movies. But 3 distinct faiths.

Oh and all 3 sides cheerfully kill each other.

The thing that links them is all the believers are horribly poor, deeply superstitious and incredibly ignorant. These are the reasons for religious brutality. The Islamists in the West are a rather nasty minority, who like the LIbDems don't really repreent anyone/

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There are extremists and pricks operating to their own horrible ends in all religions, but you have to address where you live first. Look at the percentage of Muslims (no doubt the majority of them law-abiding, friendly, tolerant people, good members of society) who, when surveyed, believe that the imposition of Sharia Law in this country is an objective they feel is a proper goal of a good Muslim. Now ask the Hindus, Buddhists, Seikhs, Christians, Jews and Jedis if they feel Britain's legal system should be run by their religious leaders... (Actually, don't ask the Jedis.)

Quote: sootyj @ October 31 2009, 12:54 AM BST

Nazism, communism etc.

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National Socialism and Communism were both religions, just secular ones. They followed the principle of the wisdom of the State above the individual. For "State", see "God".

Quote: Tim Walker @ October 31 2009, 1:00 AM BST

There are extremists and pricks operating to their own horrible ends in all religions, but you have to address where you live first. Look at the percentage of Muslims (no doubt the majority of them law-abiding, friendly, tolerant people, good members of society) who, when surveyed, believe that the imposition of Sharia Law in this country is an objective they feel is a proper goal of a good Muslim. Now ask the Hindus, Buddhists, Seikhs, Christians, Jews and Jedis if they feel Britain's legal system should be run by their religious leaders... (Actually, don't ask the Jedis.)

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Every non-extremist lends credibility to the extremists by subscribing to the same idiotic belief system -- the wishy-washy Archibishop of Canterbury gives the evil Pope credibility in the same way that an Islamic leader in the UK gives credibility to the big poobah of Iran.

All of them believe in fairies.