Which is why I said earlier I would not want Italians or Spanish having political and cultural power in GB, despite being white. British history for me, is our one over riding, shining power - class our lot as overly patriotic or xenophobic if you will - but look into our history books and you might find legitimate and fair reasons for it.
Quote: Renegade Carpark @ October 30 2009, 3:43 PM BSTLike it or not, honkey has built quite a nice civilisation in our parts of the world - religious and political freedom, non-corrupt governments and judicial systems
LOOOOL!
Quote: Tim Walker @ October 30 2009, 4:29 PM BSTTwo - that Muslims must view non-Muslims as god-less unbelievers who should either convert or are else, by definition, the anti-Muslim enemy.
Tim, I don't think this is in any way a 'tenet' of Islam. Show me the passage in the Qu'ran that says that. You should be able to do this, since you've used it as part of an argument on a public forum, and therefore presumably have researched it before using it, surely?
I am not sure it is simple as saying that Islam as a religion is inherently illiberal; the Bible if read literally is not a liberal manifesto, and indeed on issues of personal morality Protestants can be every bit as obnoxious as Moslems. Nor is Islam necessarily more intolerant of other faiths than Christianity. Christians have merrily massacred one another down the centuries on the most abstruse theological points. And if Puritan Protestants granted freedom of consciece to other faiths, that was about as much as they did permit. In this respect they were possibly less enlightened than the Umayyad or Ayyubid caliphates who happily tolerated Jewish and Christian minorities (and were quite lax in other respects - witness the Rubaiyat). Indeed it could be argued that Islamic militantism has its origins in Sultan Baibars and the backlash against Crusader fundamentalism.
Ultimately Britain is a secular society, and religions represent a problem precisely in so far as they are able to reach an accommodation with this, which can often require some nifty theological footwork. The Anglicans have more or less achieved this (homosexuality is a bit of a vexed issue), and the Catholics are being forced down the same path, particularly in Ireland, albeit that this process has been stalled by the last two quite ghastly Popes (the first of whom rode the anti-Communist backlash). I do not doubt that in time Islam will be forced to do the same. The problem is that the idealistic young who should be demanding and leading this change, have instead been radicalised in reaction to the moral decadence and military excesses of the West.
Quote: Tim Walker @ October 30 2009, 4:46 PM BSTThat misses the point. There is nothing in either the Old or New Testaments of the Bible that suggests that religion should be enforced upon others nor that religion should be paramount in running a country's laws and politics. This is where the teachings of the Koran are different. And you have to accept that the vast majority of Islamic states are run upon theocratic systems, resulting in what are frankly gross and inhumane practices and infringement of human rights on a massive scale. Liberals seem to use any trick in the book to avoid condemning the practices of Islamic states which point to their religion as a justification for their anti-libertarian regimes.
I freely condemn Islamic fundamentalism. But then I can difereniate between that and traditional Islam.
And these states are generally shit holes what ever the faith. e.g. Christian Lebanon and Egypt where the Islamist are the liberal democratic opposition to the fascistic state.
As for Fundmanentalist Jews, spend time in the West Bank or Jerusalem to get the heeby jeebies about what they are capable of.
Quote: Alfred J Kipper @ October 30 2009, 4:46 PM BSTBut Sooty, the big difference here is - our own church is only a spiritual presence and a minor cultural one - In Britain, as in many Northern Hemisphere countries, we have a Secular political system. The Muslim Faith is built upon it being totally politically eccompassing - this is where the major cultural clash is - In Britain we have shed blood for our secular rule - now in comes a totally Rligion based race who cannot understand this, respect this, or in many aspects, even adhere to this. This surely cannot be acceptable - not here!
Which is actually what the Church tried for till only 2 centuries ago. The Church up until the 18th century was a horribly brutal violent institution. Not to mention the calculated cruelty of the Catholic church in Ireland.
Also not all Muslims are the same. Seriously guys isn't that obvious? Konni huq I believe doesn't wear a Burqa.
Quote: Alfred J Kipper @ October 30 2009, 5:03 PM BSTWhich is why I said earlier I would not want Italians or Spanish having political and cultural power in GB, despite being white. British history for me, is our one over riding, shining power - class our lot as overly patriotic or xenophobic if you will - but look into our history books and you might find legitimate and fair reasons for it.
Hmm the multiple artificial famines in India, the Potato Famine, the Tazmanian Aborigines...
We have to stuff to be proud of as well?
So what? Sadam won an award from Unesco for giving every Iraqi family a TV
We do indeed have much to be proud of, but what is the point of listing any to such a malcontent, one who will only revel in their own country's faults, but one obviously not so unhappy they have bothered moving to a more decent country. I am not saying we have ever been perfect, but we've given a chance of a reasonable existence to a lot of people who would have found no such freedom or opportunity at many, many other countries. That's only one aspect.
You know what I can't stand about school boy patriotism, is it's purile and dull.
Churchill's Fight them on the Beaches Speech, is more powerful in contrast to Chamberin's peace in our times. Trafalgar is more stirring when contrasted against Napoleon's dominance of Europe.
I love my country truly. Yours seems more the uncertain passion of Peter Andre for Jordan.
I'm actually on side with Sootyj and Moonstone but I just had to bring this up somewhere: This radical (and even the FBI are calling him a radical) wanted to set up an Islamic state in the United States
If you think everything with 4 legs is a dog, then you may get trodden on by an AT AT.
Quote: Moonstone @ October 30 2009, 5:57 PM BSTTim, I don't think this is in any way a 'tenet' of Islam. Show me the passage in the Qu'ran that says that. You should be able to do this, since you've used it as part of an argument on a public forum, and therefore presumably have researched it before using it, surely?
Let me get back to you on that...
Quote: Tim Walker @ October 30 2009, 11:16 PM BSTLet me get back to you on that...
Get Rushdie to help you out.
It's not a problem, I'm fairly sure I'm right. My gut feeling concurs with my memory of what I think I read, so no doubt Ian will be issuing a grovelling apology to me fairly soon...
Quote: Marc P @ October 30 2009, 11:19 PM BSTGet Rushdie to help you out.
That washed-up old hack? Dan Brown showed Rushdie how to write controversial books about religion without needing 24 hour police protection. They may be shit, but he Brown was able to get out there and cash on his fame with that literary punani. Rushdie had to make do with wanking in a safe house. 
I've never actually read any Rushdie. Someone tried to get me to read Midnight's Children once, but I managed to get away with it. 
I've been away from this thread for some days, but I'd like to chip in on a couple of statements I believe to be in error.
Quote: Tim Walker @ October 30 2009, 4:46 PM BSTThere is nothing in either the Old or New Testaments of the Bible that suggests that religion should be enforced upon others nor that religion should be paramount in running a country's laws and politics.
Big error. The Old Testatament, at least, is precisely what you said it isn't. Perhaps you'd like to rephrase or clarify.
Quote: Alfred J Kipper @ October 30 2009, 4:46 PM BSTIn Britain, as in many Northern Hemisphere countries, we have a Secular political system.
Only relative to theocracies. Our head of state is also head of a state religion. We have unelected bishops in our legislature. We have public-financed religious schools, indoctrinating our kids with nonsense of all flavours. Etc.
America has constitutional protections against this type of abuse. We do not.
Haroun and the Sea of Stories wasn't bad at all.
Quote: Kevin Murphy @ October 30 2009, 11:28 PM BSTBig error. The Old Testatament, at least, is precisely what you said it isn't. Perhaps you'd like to rephrase or clarify.
Exactly how is this a big error, Kevin? I spent a lot of time growing up studying both the Old and New Testaments, so please tell where the Old Testament advocates conversion to a belief in God through state control? One of the fundamentals of the both the God conceived on in both Old and New Testaments is that He gives Man free will, the natural consequence being that faith in God is exercised through Man's free will.
I read his kids' book it was great
I have seen on the news people blowing other people up.. I haven't had to study books of a religious thingummy to know why they are doing it. Or why they shouldn't.