Nick Griffin on Question Time Page 36

I probably agree about the fibbing bit, how many times have you heard people say, 'I'm not racist but...'

My view is 'Okay I'm a tiny bit racist - so what? Stop making out I'm a Nazi' which is the way the hysterical anti fascist brigade and knee jerk liberals behave these days when the topic of anti-immigration or 'immigration's gone too far', is broached. To be proud of your cultural, yes, white cultural heritage is NOT an evil thing, so I wish everyone would get this into perspective and not get so hysterical about it.

The race debate probably should widen a bit more, but a lot of very liberal types in power just don't want this to happen. They think it's demeaning to racial minorities to even debate race, and just want to carry on forcing the white majority to accept that we are rapidly changing. This itself is causing a lot of anger, especially with right wing patriot groups including BNP and UKIP. It's as if we the majority have no say in the matter and just have to stand by and watch our own country change radically before our eyes. And if we complain - guess what, we're Nazis! - which is absolutely disgusting.

There has to be a much stronger measure of understanding from both the govt making these changes and the immigrants and minority political groups themselves - instead of just yelling the words 'You racist!' at their beleagured hosts.

It's funny, you never hear people say, 'I'm a racist, but..'

I think I might start doing that.

Quote: Alfred J Kipper @ October 30 2009, 9:16 AM BST

white cultural heritage is NOT an evil thing, so I wish everyone would get this into perspective and not get so hysterical about it.

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That term is just rather confusing. I assume the Romanians and other European assylum seekers are vexating you as well, but they'r ewhite as well. Some of the most "English" and patriotic people you will meet are in the Carribean and African parts of the commonwealth.

English heritage is to be a source of pride (mindful pride), but white culture? What the heck is that.

Well it is a very real thing that thrived for centuries and still, just, exists today. Why does the word 'white' so offend and upset people? That's what I don't get. You yourself have picked out this one word in all the many I wrote, to take exception to. I have to say I don't agree with your classing Romanians as white. Very nice people, I've spent time in Romania myself and nearly married one, the nearest brush with the institution I've ever had infact, but they are not white. And yet Mr Hitler invited them to join his 'glorious forces' during the war(yes I know he also slaughtered Gypsies), in which they fought against whites - Slavs.

I only use the term white for convenience, what I really mean is indigenous North European - that is the stock that built nations like Britain, whether people like it or not. Personally I'm proud of the job they made, and so THAT is the basis for my own patriotism and nervous aversion to it being given up and/or handed over to people from non- north European descent. I wouldn't even want the Italians or Spanish to be handed the reigns in shaping Britain's culture. Historically we have far too many differences, including cultural taste and religion. So this notion of cultural heritage is what drives many, many types who unfortunately just get one lump name these days - racists. Not fair, not entirely true, and it ignores the whole picture, IMO.

At the rate you are narrowing things down it looks like your white nation will soon be. You, the missus and the dog.

You're also the fella who keeps coming back to skin colour. Which in this day and age just isn't that relevant too me.

The Birtish Empire was built very much on the backs of an Indian beuracratic class and may reflect their values more than this noble white nation you belong to.

Also where does this leave poor English racists like Kilroy Silk whoa re orange?

Quote: sootyj @ October 30 2009, 2:56 PM BST

At the rate you are narrowing things down it looks like your white nation will soon be. You, the missus and the dog.

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I understand what Alfred is getting at - there is a reason that people from all over the world are desperate to get into Northern Europe / North America and it has nothing to do with jobs.

India, the Middle East and China are full of employment opportunities for unskilled labour but they would be way down on the list for any potential immigrant.

Like it or not, honkey has built quite a nice civilisation in our parts of the world - religious and political freedom, non-corrupt governments and judicial systems, running water, paved streets, etc., etc.

Now if that balance is tipped and the culture changes - then all of those values we hold dear will be wiped out. Along with all the positive aspects they brought, it goes without saying that the teenage pregnancy, unwed mothers and drug and gun culture in Britain exploded after the influx of Afro-Carribean immigrants to this country. It may not be a PC thing to say, but the Jamaicans brought this culture with them and now it's here to stay.

However, I am more worried about the growing numbers of Muslims establishing a foothold in the UK. If you don't want history to repeat itself - the Crusades, the Spanish Inquisition, etc. - then numbers have to be controlled. Bizarrely, at the beginning of the Crusades, the peasants hit the streets and attacked Jewish money lenders, such was their prevelance at the time.

So our choices are a) have a proper discussion about the subject b) we can be PC and say everything is fine - which leads to c) ignore the problem until society boils over and blood runs through the streets.

Well it's also a case of us being lazy and spoilt with hardworking great grand dads. The British Imperium quite purposefully squashed African aspirations in terms of education and self leadership. As they did in the Americas and where they could in Asia. So much so you had the Opium wars where are navy supported English drug dealing in China.

The idea that our current standard of living is in any way down to us being hardworking and industrious is pretty daft.

As for unwed mothers et al. that's more an unfortunate hangover from the Welfare State. I suppose the days of pregnant single mums going to the mental assylum maybe due another go?

Drugs I suspect have rather more to do with chnages in transportation and legislation then anything else. Dear old Churhcill did like his cocaine pills for depression

There is a huge amount to be proud in being British. And there is alot to fear from Islamic fundamentalism. But disapearing into a hazy dreamland of a magic past that never was orlurid fear of the other helps no one.

As for traditionalist not fundamentalist Muslims you'll find they hold many of those English values you cherish so much. Perhaps more strongly than yourslef?

Quote: sootyj @ October 30 2009, 3:57 PM BST

There is a huge amount to be proud in being British. And there is alot to fear from Islamic fundamentalism. But disapearing into a hazy dreamland of a magic past that never was orlurid fear of the other helps no one.

As for traditionalist not fundamentalist Muslims you'll find they hold many of those English values you cherish so much. Perhaps more strongly than yourslef?

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Re: your traditionalist, non-fundamentalist Muslims - do you see what is happening in Pakistan at the moment? Do you see how easily the traditional Muslims are giving in to the fundamentalists? The children in this country being born from traditionalist Muslims are the ones flying over to Pakistan to learn how to blow themselves up. How many more bombings on the London Underground do you need before this becomes a threat in your eyes?

As for wanting to turn back the clock to a time when the UK was made up of law abiding, socially responsible individuals, isn't some 'magical dream', it's the way things should be. But thanks to Labour, they've let the corporations and the banks run rampant, which is why we have such a huge influx of immigrants - cheap labour so rich people can get richer.

I am not to blame for any of the above but I do feel the effects of it.

Is there any actual tradition of liberal individualism within modern Islam? It seems to me that what we describe as "traditional" in relation to Islam, would be fundamentalist if applied to Christianity. That is not to say that all fundamentalists are Jihadis, but it does create a rich recruiting ground for them.

Controversial words there, RC, especially in the middle, but I accept your right to view your opinion and to illustrate the debate with examples, as you see it. One of our greatest assets in the West is our right to this free speech - not every country gets this freedom.

Personally I think that is a very valid point, and have heard this argument being used in the USA to describe how some Cities/urban districts have become little more than breeding grounds for 'coloured' crime and violence, and holding pens for black/Latino populated prisons. We even have black guys from places like LA and Detroit over here now advising British ministers on how to help stop black urban districts in Britain ending up the same way. It is a subject that should be debated and questions should be asked about WHO is to blame and how to stop it ruining life for everyone else. To avoid mentioning it, for fear of seeming blameful or racist or non PC is totally wrong, and even harmful, because who can deny that this sort of thing is happening in some communities? Gun crime in Britain used to be extremely rare, now it is the worst in Western Europe - it is very worrying. We have to look into WHY this has happened and who is doing it in order to prevent it reaching US levels and destroying our country, which was once a safe place to live in.

Surely the fundamental problems of (even "traditional") Islam is that it has two important tenets to its faith. One - that there should be no separation of church/religion and state. Two - that Muslims must view non-Muslims as god-less unbelievers who should either convert or are else, by definition, the anti-Muslim enemy.

I don't see how this is compatible with the positive virtues of Westernised liberal democracies that we hold precious, such as individual freedom of choice and transparent, non-theocratic democracy.

Quote: Renegade Carpark @ October 30 2009, 4:09 PM BST

As for wanting to turn back the clock to a time when the UK was made up of law abiding, socially responsible individuals, isn't some 'magical dream', it's the way things should be.

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The ability to measure crime and effectively respond to it on a meaningful scale has only been possible in the last60-70 years or so with new technology such as 2 way radios and cars.

Quote: Tim Walker @ October 30 2009, 4:29 PM BST

Surely the fundamental problems of (even "traditional") Islam is that it has two important tenets to its faith. One - that there should be no separation of church/religion and state. Two - that Muslims must view non-Muslims as god-less unbelievers who should either convert or are else, by definition, the anti-Muslim enemy.

I don't see how this is compatible with the positive virtues of Westernised liberal democracies that we hold precious, such as individual freedom of choice and transparent, non-theocratic democracy.

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Well plenty of Christians don't believe into render unto Ceasar and all that. Religions as a rule say gnerally silly things, the question is who listens. And in this country across all faiths increasingly less and less.

Quote: Alfred J Kipper @ October 30 2009, 4:23 PM BST

Personally I think that is a very valid point, and have heard this argument being used in the USA to describe how some Cities/urban districts have become little more than breeding grounds for 'coloured' crime and violence, and holding pens for black/Latino populated prisons.

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Well it maybe to do with poverty and poor education. Predominantly white European cities aren't magical nirvanas. The racism that people tlak about Europe more these days is of the institutional variety.

That said there is alot to be said for asking communities to take on their own issues. Many do, disempowering political correctness is as bad as any other from of racism.

Quote: Tim Walker @ October 30 2009, 4:29 PM BST

Surely the fundamental problems of (even "traditional") Islam is that it has two important tenets to its faith. One - that there should be no separation of church/religion and state. Two - that Muslims must view non-Muslims as god-less unbelievers who should either convert or are else, by definition, the anti-Muslim enemy.

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I suspect a world run by fundamentalist Jews or Jedis would be a pretty scary place. Wahibist and Shiete Islam are more to do with tribal identities.

Quote: sootyj @ October 30 2009, 4:40 PM BST

I suspect a world run by fundamentalist Jews or Jedis would be a pretty scary place. Wahibist and Shiete Islam are more to do with tribal identities.

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That misses the point. There is nothing in either the Old or New Testaments of the Bible that suggests that religion should be enforced upon others nor that religion should be paramount in running a country's laws and politics. This is where the teachings of the Koran are different. And you have to accept that the vast majority of Islamic states are run upon theocratic systems, resulting in what are frankly gross and inhumane practices and infringement of human rights on a massive scale. Liberals seem to use any trick in the book to avoid condemning the practices of Islamic states which point to their religion as a justification for their anti-libertarian regimes.

Quote: sootyj @ October 30 2009, 4:35 PM BST

The ability to measure crime and effectively respond to it on a meaningful scale has only been possible in the last60-70 years or so with new technology such as 2 way radios and cars.

Well plenty of Christians don't believe into render unto Ceasar and all that. Religions as a rule say gnerally silly things, the question is who listens. And in this country across all faiths increasingly less and less.

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But Sooty, the big difference here is - our own church is only a spiritual presence and a minor cultural one - In Britain, as in many Northern Hemisphere countries, we have a Secular political system. The Muslim Faith is built upon it being totally politically eccompassing - this is where the major cultural clash is - In Britain we have shed blood for our secular rule - now in comes a totally Rligion based race who cannot understand this, respect this, or in many aspects, even adhere to this. This surely cannot be acceptable - not here!

Quote: Alfred J Kipper @ October 30 2009, 4:46 PM BST

But Sooty, the big difference here is - our own church is only a spiritual presence and a minor cultural one - In Britain, as in many Northern Hemisphere countries, we have a Secular political system. The Muslim Faith is built upon it being totally politically eccompassing - this is where the major cultural clash is - In Britain we have shed blood for our secular rule - now in comes a totally Rligion based race who cannot understand this, respect this, or in many aspects, even adhere to this. This surely cannot be acceptable - not here!

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Exactly.

Too often periods of British history, notably the era surrounding QEI, are presented as some simple battle of wills between two flavours of Christianity - Protestant and Catholic. The most important thing that came out of defeating Catholic rule in this country was that Britain regained and maintained its political and statehood independence from Rome. Presumably no-one objects to the fact that our ancestors fought to resist being ruled over and governed by the Pope and the Vatican? It is a fundamental part of Britishness to resist theocracy and retain secular statehood. Look at what happens in countries where they have not got this and you'll probably realise what a good idea this is.