Quote: Ronnie Anderson @ October 24 2009, 11:28 AM BSTThe Good Life... is still one of my favourite sitcoms for the charm factor.
Or indeed the farm factor.
Ronnie Anderson's MA sitcom extract Page 3
Quote: Roodeye @ October 24 2009, 11:36 AM BSTDoes it?
By God, I'm on a real learning curve this morning!
I'm not entirely sure you are, but you're not doing the MA so that's ok. 
Quote: Roodeye @ October 24 2009, 11:22 AM BSTI think we'd all agree Butterflies USED broad strokes.
My question is 'Was it ABOUT broad strokes?"
I think we'd all agree also that broad strokes combined with subtle humour can produce excellent comedy, whether in a sitcom or otherwise.
Kipper - Yes the Butterflies clips proves it can be done, no question.
I simply query Marc's assertion that sitcom is ABOUT broad strokes.
Generally speaking, I think that has to be the main focus for the writer, but it does not HAVE to stop there, as Carla Lane proved. You can bring depth and sublety and drama in, but you do have to be skilled in this and have a very strong narrative which backs it up - I'd say these days this type of stuff is for commissioned pros only - to try and break through with a deep and subtble sitcom script as an unknown would be insanity. IMO.
Quote: don rushmore @ October 24 2009, 11:50 AM BSTOr indeed the farm factor.
Isn't that someone who runs a Scottish estate?
Quote: Alfred J Kipper @ October 24 2009, 11:52 AM BSTto try and break through with a deep and subtble sitcom script as an unknown would be insanity. IMO.
I agree. I sent off a sitcom a write set around a death bed and soon discovered that it was unlikely to be seen as the ideal replacement for Not Going Out.
But if your style of writing is subtle I don't think there is anything wrong with including subtle humour, as otherwise, you'd be creating a major handicap for yourself by trying to write in a style not naturally suited to you up against people who are suited to it.
Quote: Alfred J Kipper @ October 24 2009, 11:52 AM BSTGenerally speaking, I think that has to be the main focus for the writer, but it does not HAVE to stop there, as Carla Lane proved.
At the expense of humour and laughs.
Yes, that's right, at the expense of humour and laughs, but then that's what makes sitcom such a broad church. It's been said many times I think that The Good Life is not particularly funny but it is an extremely popular sitcom. There's a market for gentle sitcomedy.
Quote: Roodeye @ October 24 2009, 2:16 PM BSTSome TV producers/executives like gags and jokes - and some don't.
Okay, when most people are talking about 'gags' in a sitcom script they are referring to moments that make a person laugh, 'funnies, whatever you want to call it. They don't literally mean a set up and punhchline. Any producer will expect several of these moments on each page of a sitcom.
Quote: Roodeye @ October 24 2009, 2:16 PM BSTIf you write purely to create art, without giving a thought to selling it, you should simply follow your heart and write what pleases you.
If you want to sell it, you have to write for your intended market.
Some TV producers/executives like gags and jokes - and some don't.
When all's said and done, it's a case of 'horses for courses'.
I don't think we are disagreeing here Roodeye, by gag I mean any funny line or event that comes organically out of the characters and situation, nobody is suggesting you just have characters telling 'jokes', although having said that John Sullivan does it. 
Quote: Alfred J Kipper @ October 24 2009, 2:38 PM BSTYes, that's right, at the expense of humour and laughs, but then that's what makes sitcom such a broad church. It's been said many times I think that The Good Life is not particularly funny but it is an extremely popular sitcom. There's a market for gentle sitcomedy.
Listen to it again ALfred, can you hear the audience laughing and if so how often??
And Lee Mack and his 'partner'.
Listen to it again ALfred, can you hear the audience laughing and if so how often??[/quote]
Yes that was a funny clip, but naturally as Dolly said, all the time you focus on drama or emotions - as I would say Butterflies does more, then she's right, humour and jokes cannot get airtime. I still think the combination can work very well, as in Butterflies.
Infact I prefer that sort of sitcom to the out and out vehicle for jokes, gags, funny lines, culturaly aware humour that some modern sitcoms simply are. Athough I found it funny, I cringed quite a lot at the overwhelming artificiality of Not Going Out. Compare this to the realistic depth of Butterflies for example. I'd choose Butterflies to watch over NGO myself. I'm not too sure how many here will agree wih me though.
Characters can deliver lines that are self-consciously humourous so long as it in character for them to do so, and the remark emerges out of the story rather than being obviously set up. I am actually struggling to think of any sitcom that does not have at least one character licensed to do this.
But this is all getting rather a long way from the original 'gag' which sparked the discussion, which was unselfconsciously humourous i.e. too dumb to be credible, and therefore not naturalistic. Again I would say it came down to whether it was in character. The characters in sitcoms are wittier and/or dumber than the people you meet in real life.
Quote: Alfred J Kipper @ October 24 2009, 2:52 PM BSTInfact I prefer that sort of sitcom to the out and out vehicle for jokes, gags, funny lines, culturaly aware humour that some modern sitcoms simply are.
I am totally in agreement with you here and I loved Butterflies. I don't think the aim of a sitcom has to be to be totally to make people laugh, as there are many sitcoms I love for reasons totally unconnected with how funny they are.
Surely it totally depends on the writer, Graham Lineham says he just wants to make people laugh whereas Gary Schandling use comedy to make moral points.
Yes I agree with all the above comments. I think this is a very wise page and I might have to print it off.
You go longer than a minute or two in a sitcom without making people laugh, or trying to, and do so often and you are going to find it exremely hard to sell. Gary Shandling wanted to get his moral points across but he did so within the generic expectations of getting the audience laughing. A lot of comedy deals with serious issues some of the best comedy ever deals with heart breakingly serious issues and I am of course referring to One Foot in the Grave and not Fools & etc.
"The bastard form of mass culture is humiliated repetition... always new books, new programs, new films, news items, but always the same meaning."
Roland Barthes