Quote: Aaron @ October 3 2009, 6:51 PM BSTBut perhaps a bigger issue today are those treacherous, short-sighted idiots across the sea. I know that the Irish have the whole "stupid drunk" stereotype, but this is a new low.
They voted in favor? 
So is Labour really washed out? Page 4
CSOs get unfair stick. They're a realistic if not ideal solution to the police not being able to recruit enough quality candidates. The only realistic alternative is conscription. Like tax credits ASBOs have worked on the majority of crooks, the unrepentant persistent criminal still is a problem.
And the state getting involved in your life? Your subsidised degree, your medical treatment, the speed cameras and bumps that stop you getting run over, the security force who watch out for terroris, the massive subsidies to public transport....
The state is in your life in a good way every day. Small state? Why not move to Liberia or Somalia?
Quote: sootyj @ October 3 2009, 6:56 PM BSTCSOs get unfair stick. They're a realistic if not ideal solution to the police not being able to recruit enough quality candidates. The only realistic alternative is conscription.
Are UK cops poorly paid? They don't make a lot of money here, but I don't think there's any shortage of applicants. My neighbor has been trying to get on the force for years.
No very, very well paid with excelent over time and briliant pensions.
You couldn't make the job any more lucrative. But it's a shitty nasty job and more and more like being some sort of bengihted social worker. Not to mention not enough decent people apply.
So much anger in this thread.
And I must give Labour the big yes for hospitals, I don't know much about spending elsewhere but I know for a fact the government has spent a fair amount of dosh on hospitals (my company's software is heavily involved with a lot of the hospital projects).
Concentrating on cancer and maternity wards from what I've been looking at. Granted some are at a feasibility stage but I can also list many at a pre-construction or construction phase.
And yes give Conservatives a go! Labour have had their day for now!
End 
Quote: DaButt @ October 3 2009, 6:56 PM BSTThey voted in favor?
If you mean "Did they bend over and let the EU take them roughly up the arse?", then the answer is yes.
Quote: sootyj @ October 3 2009, 7:01 PM BSTNo very, very well paid with excelent over time and briliant pensions.
You couldn't make the job any more lucrative. But it's a shitty nasty job and more and more like being some sort of bengihted social worker. Not to mention not enough decent people apply.
If I thought I'd have to spend more time at a desk filling in forms than actually out doing the job I was interested in, I wouldn't bother applying either.
Quote: Paul W @ October 3 2009, 7:03 PM BSTAnd I must give Labour the big yes for hospitals, I don't know much about spending elsewhere but I know for a fact the government has spent a fair amount of dosh on hospitals
Read back to what Tim was saying (I think on the previous page).
I wonder how the average UK cop feels about the state of things. Would he/she like to be able to throw more people in jail, carry a gun and generally be more aggressive in preventing crime? Or are the lazy cops as portrayed in Ideal and Early Doors closer to reality?
A lot of cops would resign if ordered to carry guns.
Quote: sootyj @ October 3 2009, 7:54 PM BSTA lot of cops would resign if ordered to carry guns.
I was thinking more along the lines of a voluntary choice. I know there are plenty of armed response units in the UK, so why would the average cop walking a beat be upset about carrying a gun himself?
Quote: DaButt @ October 3 2009, 7:42 PM BSTI wonder how the average UK cop feels about the state of things. Would he/she like to be able to throw more people in jail, carry a gun and generally be more aggressive in preventing crime?
The cops in Sutton (South London/Surrey) were certainly never shy in being aggressive and violent when I used to live and work there. Hence quite a few people ended-up dying in custody in their police cells, whilst the officers were upstairs working out their official stories with the duty sergeant. 
Quote: DaButt @ October 3 2009, 8:01 PM BSTI was thinking more along the lines of a voluntary choice. I know there are plenty of armed response units in the UK, so why would the average cop walking a beat be upset about carrying a gun himself?
It would be cause a big divide between state and the public though. The police are technically guardians of the citizens, not instruments of the state. As members of the public we can't be armed, so allowing the police to be routinely armed would cross a line, I think. We're meant to be able to trust the police, but I think that trust would be further eroded if they were all armed. It would also inevitably lead to unnecessary deaths, police officers being sometimes hot-heads and easily provokable too (see above).
Quote: Tim Walker @ October 3 2009, 8:01 PM BSTThe cops in Sutton (South London/Surrey) were certainly never shy in being aggressive and violent when I used to live and work there.
I can't get an incident I saw at a train station (Reading, maybe?) where a couple of 12-year-old boys were drinking cans of beer and pissing on the side of a building. A female cop yelled at them to stop and they just called her a c**t and told her to f**k off. She shook her head and walked away.
Quote: DaButt @ October 3 2009, 8:06 PM BSTI can't get an incident I saw at a train station (Reading, maybe?) where a couple of 12-year-old boys were drinking cans of beer and pissing on the side of a building. A female cop yelled at them to stop and they just called her a c**t and told her to f**k off. She shook her head and walked away.
That's terrible and I'm not trying to make a more general point against out police. When I was a kid we genuinely used to respect and fear the police - that is, if we did something wrong we knew we'd get punished - and the police were the ultimate form of punishment. Conversely though, we would have felt safe from harm to see them if we felt threatened. Unfortunately the emergence of a "rights" culture in this country has eroded respect and led to a situation where neither police nor parents can effectively discipline children (or indeed adults).
Quote: sootyj @ October 3 2009, 6:59 PM BSTCSOs get unfair stick. They're a realistic if not ideal solution to the police not being able to recruit enough quality candidates. The only realistic alternative is conscription. Like tax credits ASBOs have worked on the majority of crooks, the unrepentant persistent criminal still is a problem.
I hate the CSOs. I just think they are a bit Gestapo-esque and I've spoken to real Police Officers and they equally can't stand them.
However, Labour and the next election. I hope they do win it as I don't like Tories, but I really hope they don't win my local seat (Oldham East and Saddleworth) as I can't stand the MP (Phil Woolas. A Tesco is being built in my village, all the local residents were against it, yet it still got built and he did nothing, the councillors were corrupt also. I live on a main road that is mad with traffic anyway, so a Labour candidate said 'There is no evidence that this Tesco will increase the traffic on the road' enough said). Anyway, now I've had my rant, yes as a whole I do want Labour to win the election, but I will be voting for the Liberal Democrats.
Quote: sootyj @ October 3 2009, 6:17 PM BSTIf you're suggesting Brown could magically lower mortgage rates and property rates. Then I hate to say it but he ain't Skeletor. People used to rent don't blame the poor sod for our property mad greed oriented society.
No, but spending on child care outside of the home, instead of breaks for parents at home is ridiculous.
I'm a member of this organisation
http://www.timeforparenting.org/
Its philosphy is set out on the home page.
Vaguely sinister, shades of The Handmaid's Tale.
Me I'd do away with families altogether. All children should be adopted by carers selected by scientific assessment of their abilities.