Quote: Aaron @ October 2 2009, 6:26 PM BSTNothing today. But they gave the wrong answer in a referendum last year, so are being polled again.
Ohhh on joining the Euro, didn't they give the wrong answer couple of years back as wellthat's why they are being asked to "choose" again?
Quote: Gavin @ October 2 2009, 6:20 PM BSTAgreed. All useless corrupt snooty space monkeys. MPs that is not just the Tories.
Quote: Aaron @ October 2 2009, 6:21 PM BSTYep. No matter the governing party, they'll do good stuff, bad stuff, and f**ked up stuff. More or less it equals out.
Quote: Moonstone @ October 2 2009, 6:21 PM BSTYep. They're all exactly the same with exactly the same feckin agenda. Democracy my arse. Illusion of, maybe.
F**king hell! That was easy! Right then, rise up comrades!!
Not the Euro, but a big reform of the whole of the EU, yes. And it's not the first time that the EU has done it. If you don't get the answer you want, ask again until you do. That's the way they operate, that's their idea of democracy.
F**k you, Brussels. F**k. You.
Quote: Nil Putters @ October 2 2009, 6:31 PM BST
None of us are inbred or upper class enough to get in politics.
When Labour loses the election next year, they'll be sitting around scratching their heads as to just how they managed to be in power for 13 years and not really do anything of substance to change the face of society.
They made material progress on the state of the NHS but no real change of culture as to how it is run. They took us into more pointless wars and conflicts than the Tories ever did. They ceded constitutional power to the EU, yet in all other ways avoided the issue of Britain's future role in Europe (for 13 years mind!). They brought in thousands of pieces of legislation, many of them badly drafted and ill-conceived, yet achieved no real change in addressing the issues of the underclass and generational poverty.
I could go on, but won't. In short though, they will have left a political balance sheet with some positives (notably the minimum wage and childcare), but a vast list of negatives - failed policies and missed opportunities.
Quote: sootyj @ October 2 2009, 4:03 PM BSTHaving read the Sun's obituary on New Lab one has to wander is it really all over?
Quote: Tim Walker @ October 2 2009, 9:33 PM BSTThey made material progress on the state of the NHS but no real change of culture as to how it is run.
Taking into account inflation. And that there are many more, more expensive and more advanced drugs, treatments and methods of diagnosis that would have all been funded by whichever party was in power. How much of Labour's NHS "increases" have actually reached the front line? I get the feeling that most of the rest of the cash has gone to the bureaucracy, middle-managers, multiple levels of administration, rather than actual improvements in care. (This isn't just my view from reading political articles, but having spoken to family and friends who work in the NHS.)
But what's your impression? Has their funding really been as impressive and effective to front-line care as they make out, or has it largely been squandered/irrelevant as above?
I largely agree with what you have said there. In terms of the bricks and mortar the investment has certainly borne fruit. However, taking into account that much of the actual hospital and treatment centre building work was done via PFIs, a lot of hard cash from the increased budgets has been swallowed up by management and other bureaucratic expansion.
There have been huge wastes of money in terms of the various NHS IT systems, some of which were frankly unnecessary in the first place. Much money has been wasted on new centres for surgery, which actually aren't very labour-intensive or cost-effective.
As regards frontline care for patients (and conditions for staff), superficially there have been improvements in the presentation of care and in specialist treatments (especially cancer services); but actually little progress in terms of day-to-day healthcare benefits. Money has been thrown at new treatments and new staff without always proper evaluation as to whether or not they were better than the previous treatments and strategies.
A lot of money is wasted because doctors and nurses rely more on expensive tests (which of course patients and relatives feel better about having done) rather than good clinical experience and examination. Worryingly, basic medical and nursing skills are in decline. Doctors especially (partly due to limited working hours as juniors) take many more years to gain the knowledge and experience they used to acquire quickly due to intensive post-graduate work and training.
In summary, I would say that the money has improved a few things greatly and many things superficially - but it's generally not been good value-for-money. (I would say that Labour has put the money there to greatly improve preventative care. This may ultimately save/improve a lot of lives. Labour will probably not be around to take the credit for it if it does.)
I strongly disagree with their stance that mothers should work outside the home, whilst the under-qualified and badly paid look after the children in group care.
Quote: Dolly Dagger @ October 2 2009, 11:51 PM BSTI strongly disagree with their stance that mothers should work outside the home, whilst the under-qualified and badly paid look after the children in group care.
Such as those nursery school paedos with camera phones. 
(Though, to be fair, that probably can't be blamed on Labour.)
Quote: Tim Walker @ October 2 2009, 11:56 PM BSTAnd being nursery school paedos with camera phones, to boot.
The Daily Mail blamed that on Tony Blair.
Quote: Dolly Dagger @ October 2 2009, 11:57 PM BSTThe Daily Mail blamed that on Tony Blair.
Are there no asylum seekers left in the country to blame?
Quote: Dolly Dagger @ October 2 2009, 11:57 PM BSTThe Daily Mail blamed that on Tony Blair.
That's terrible, you can't blame Blair for those paedos.
It's OK to blame and despise him for the thousands of unnecessary deaths in pointless vainglorious wars and for being a dishonest charlatan who misled and arrogantly ignored the views of the citizens who elected him for ten years. It's OK to blame him for demeaning democracy and presiding over a decline in parliamentary standards, plus for instilling a general malaise in society that suggests it's OK to lie, cheat, spin and value style over substance. It's OK to blame him for being a heartless, preening, immoral c**t. That's OK, that's normal.
Just please don't blame for nursery paedos.