Quote: Rhubarb @ September 18 2009, 3:19 PM BSTThe telegraph is a capitalist organ. Quite a big one, I grant you. But it hangs to the right. I don't believe the hype myself.
Capitalism. 
Are we still a democracy or a corptocracy? Page 6
Quote: Aaron @ September 18 2009, 3:24 PM BSTCapitalism.
I think Aaron would go gay if Capitalism was a dude.
Quote: Aaron @ September 18 2009, 3:00 PM BSTTimbo, bringing correctness, common sense, and jokes, to the BCG since May 2008.
I do jokes. 
Quote: Aaron @ September 18 2009, 3:00 PM BSTIf you don't agree, then why keep bleating on about them all being careerists? Anyway, as I said, it's not just money they're after, it's power, so your Tony argument is bullshit.
The guy who manages a branch of McDonalds isn't making money, but he is a careerist. If there's one truly depressing diference between Thatch-Cons and New-Labs it's that Thatch-cons were properly rotten to their rotten cores. Directorships, bungs, foreign jollies the way they filled their snouts was almost admirable. New-Lab are careerist in the same way the guy who's so happy to get all 5 stars at McDonalds is. e.g. an unimaginative plodder wanting their pension, poor salary and some goodies on exies.
For some years now we've had a government resembling the very worst qualities of a bunch of second-rate middle managers. These people should be pissing their lives away making presentations at sales conferences in Holiday Inns, not running the f**king country.
Quote: Tim Walker @ September 18 2009, 3:51 PM BSTFor some years now we've had a government resembling the very worst qualities of a bunch of second-rate middle managers. These people should be pissing their lives away making presentations at sales conferences in Holiday Inns, not running the f**king country.
So true.
Quote: Sofa_Matt @ September 18 2009, 10:20 AM BSTYes, let's slide to the middle and force a hung parliament. Wouldn't mind seeing one of them.
I wouldn't mind seeing MPs hung.
Quote: Tim Walker @ September 18 2009, 3:51 PM BSTFor some years now we've had a government resembling the very worst qualities of a bunch of second-rate middle managers. These people should be pissing their lives away making presentations at sales conferences in Holiday Inns, not running the f**king country.
That's why we should leave Government to the Etonians.
Quote: Aaron @ September 18 2009, 4:39 PM BST
That's why we should leave Government to the Etonians.
Your posts about your desire for monarchy still catches me off guard at times Aaron.
Etonians aren't (necessarily) the monarchy, Curt. Learn yourself proper!
Perhaps the blare of the media has been so much brighter on them?
But look at the governments top operator. Venal old Mandelson; cunning, dishonest, greedy and brilliant. I don't trust any politician who isn't on the make. Look at greedy old Boris or St Ken with all his contacts in the city.
Honest politicians are these days usually stupid ones like Ben.
Quote: Tim Walker @ September 18 2009, 3:51 PM BSTFor some years now we've had a government resembling the very worst qualities of a bunch of second-rate middle managers. These people should be pissing their lives away making presentations at sales conferences in Holiday Inns, not running the f**king country.
They are na unimpressive bunch aren't they? Every one keeps saying Brown is a financial wiz, but what evidence?
Quote: sootyj @ September 18 2009, 5:43 PM BSTBut look at the governments top operator. Venal old Mandelson; cunning, dishonest, greedy and brilliant.
And hugely admired by civil servants in his new Department as an effective minister. But then give me an honest crook over a self-deluding bullshitter any day.
I would agree that most politicians are not dishonest, but neither are they honest - they are bullshitters. I am reading Bad Science by Ben Goldacre at the moment (I can't recommend it highly enough). In that he quotes from Harry Frankfurt's On Bullshit:
It is impossible for someone to lie unless he thinks he knows the truth. Providing bullshit requires no such conviction. When an honest man speaks, he says only what he believes to be true; and for the liar it is correspondingly indispensable that he believes his statements to be false. For the bullshitter... his eyes are not on the facts at all... except in so far as they may be pertinent to his interest in getting away with what he says. He does not care whether the things he says reflect reality correctly. He just picks them out, or makes them up, to suit his purpose.
It is this lack of intellectual integrity which makes politicians so godawful ineffective; that and their capacity for self-delusion. They do not have to lie to others, because they are able to convince themselves of the version of reality they want to believe, and that, if there are any slight inconsistencies, these are all in the purpose of the greater good, which is to keep themselves in power, where they can of course do the most good in future, and, incidentally reap the rewards they deserve for all this selfless public service. Tony Blair, for instance, is often dubbed a liar; he isn't. He can go before his God and claim, without lying, to be an honest man, but he isn't that either. The man bullshits us, himself and God.
Quote: Aaron @ September 18 2009, 4:44 PM BSTEtonians aren't (necessarily) the monarchy, Curt. Learn yourself proper!
My mission tonight is to work "learn yourself proper" somewhere into a conversation tonight. Hopefully loudly and finger pointing will be included.
My latest (unpublished) novel deals with this as a side plot: The weakening of governments and the growth of corporations. A very real danger to society. I'd say we're in the stage where governments appear to be in control but that appearance suits both governments and the corporations. The truth is that governments are being increasingly sidelined, a process that has been decades (even centuries) long.
I keep reading this as "Are we a democracy or a coprophagy ?" 