Quote: roscoff @ August 12 2009, 12:56 AM BSTI'll throw one out. I had it you had it and I guess my kids will have it as well. Sex before marriage.
I was a virgin on my wedding day.
Baby P's killers Page 9
Quote: roscoff @ August 12 2009, 12:18 AM BSTThat kid was no more than a means to live i.e. the social benefit. Not a human, not even a pet. Something to provide money.
Reminds me of a (true) story of a poor woman in Victorian London, addicted to the gin. She went into prostitution (for money for gin), and when she became pregnant sold the subsequent child to a workhouse (for money for gin). She then returned a few months later, taking the child out for the day. She strangled him, left the body in the Fleet, and sold the clothes that the workhouse had provided (for money for gin). Charming!
Quote: Aaron @ August 12 2009, 1:02 AM BSTReminds me of a (true) story of a poor woman in Victorian London, addicted to the gin. She went into prostitution (for money for gin), and when she became pregnant sold the subsequent child to a workhouse (for money for gin). She then returned a few months later, taking the child out for the day. She strangled him, left the body in the Fleet, and sold the clothes that the workhouse had provided (for money for gin). Charming!
I didn't know Thatcher was that old.
Quote: zooo @ August 12 2009, 12:22 AM BSTI dunno about that.
That doesn't fit in with my romanticised view of life.
*rejects*
Then maybe it's a skill that can become unlearned.
Quote: roscoff @ August 12 2009, 12:56 AM BSTI'll throw one out. I had it you had it and I guess my kids will have it as well. Sex before marriage. It used to be frowned upon. Now accepted. What it nearly always meant was that people used to have to save up years to get married. Then when they were they were older. Therefore when the kids were born the parents were that much older as well.
But that also led to backstreet abortion clinics. But you can't have your cake and eat it.
Tough isn't it.
The Silver Ring Thing movement in the US has been a total failure. And there were plenty of rushed marriages, Magdalane laundries and huge orphanages for abandoned kids. Even if we turned the clock back it wouldn't be a good thing.
Quote: Dolly Dagger @ August 12 2009, 12:59 AM BSTI was a virgin on my wedding day.
You Dolly I believe in many ways are proof that what I said just isn't true for some. And indeed teenage pregnancies are still the minority and even then some become perfectly good parents. But I do believe that a lot of problems occur when a child is born to a parent who is clearly not mature enough to cope with it. And for mature that really means mental age.
Quote: roscoff @ August 12 2009, 1:09 AM BSTYou Dolly I believe in many ways are proof that what I said just isn't true for some. And indeed teenage pregnancies are still the minority and even then some become perfectly good parents. But I do believe that a lot of problems occur when a child is born to a parent who is clearly not mature enough to cope with it. And for mature that really means mental age.
I was lying. 
Having kids in your thirties is still pretty scary. There's so many sacrifices to make (what ever your age).
Too be honest I think we should bite the bullet on making benefits conditional. We do it for employment where you must prove your an active job seeker. So why not child benefit etc?
Also we need to be far harsher on taking kids into care and putting them up for adoption. At the same time as giving adopters less choice, to beat the
"I want a white healthy 2 month baby only please!"
Syndrome.
Quote: sootyj @ August 12 2009, 1:12 AM BSTToo be honest I think we should bite the bullet on making benefits conditional. We do it for employment where you must prove your an active job seeker. So why not child benefit etc?
Also we need to be far harsher on taking kids into care and putting them up for adoption. At the same time as giving adopters less choice, to beat the
"I want a white healthy 2 month baby only please!"
Syndrome.
Everyone's entitled to child benefit. There's loads of families who don't need it.
Adopters aren't picky and given a choice. White couples are only allowed to adopt white children in this country and it's perfectly understandable why someone would prefer to adopt a healthy child. The older ones also have amny pyschological problems, so it's no wonder adopters would like to take on babies.
Sorry roscoff, I gonna have to throw it back at you. Sex before marriage has not been the downfall of our society. - which includes corrupt politicians, evil corporations, a dishonest police force, violent crime, etc.
We throw around words like 'Respect' and 'Shame', but they're concepts entirely alien to certain sections of society.
After thinking about this for some time (at least 45 seconds), I'm going to throw out my solution -
Segregation -
It's quite simple, we just build some walls around our cities. Honest, decent, hard working, law abiding citizens get to live in paradise within the walls. Scum have to live 'Mad Max' style outside the walls.
Murder a baby? Outside the wall you go. Use your political power to line your pockets and rip off the taxpayer, wall time. Get drunk and start fights in the street, bye-bye.
It's a punishment / reward scheme I'm quite fond of.
Quote: roscoff @ August 12 2009, 12:33 AM BSTJust a thought to kick around. I think that our society as it currently stands can't handle the current levels of social deprivation. It just can't get to the root of the problem.
Poverty and a lack of education were always considered to be the underlining cause of societies problems. Well education is free and every child has a chance to participate in it and the welfare system is there to make sure no-one starves.
Yet year after year where I work we get an increasing number of pupils who are well behind their chronological age in social and academic skills. Kids are turning up in the nursery that can only grunt. They have zero language skills. and numeracy skills? They haven't a clue.
So we are literally throwing education and money at these people and it's being batted back in our faces. So what next?
Poverty isn't just an absence of money or material goods. It's also an absence of intellectual, emotional and experiential wealth. The family where no one worked for 3 generations, no one reads and no one hopes is poor on a very deep level.
The question is what kind of society do we want? I think our choice obsessed new labour society is a bit of a failure (as was it's Thatcherite predecessor).
We need to be willing to drag these people into the day light. But it means more, it means employing those with criminal records, having less able kids in good schools and being part of your community.
Quote: Renegade Carpark @ August 12 2009, 1:13 AM BSTSorry roscoff, I gonna have to throw it back at you. Sex before marriage has not been the downfall of our society. - which includes corrupt politicians, evil corporations, a dishonest police force, violent crime, etc.
We throw around words like 'Respect' and 'Shame', but they're concepts entirely alien to certain sections of society.
After thinking about this for some time (at least 45 seconds), I'm going to throw out my solution -
Segregation -
It's quite simple, we just build some walls around our cities. Honest, decent, hard working, law abiding citizens get to live in paradise within the walls. Scum have to live 'Mad Max' style outside the walls.
Murder a baby? Outside the wall you go. Use your political power to line your pockets and rip off the taxpayer, wall time. Get drunk and start fights in the street, bye-bye.
It's a punishment / reward scheme I'm quite fond of.
It already kind of exists in the difference between the wealthy and the poor.
Quote: Dolly Dagger @ August 12 2009, 1:12 AM BSTEveryone's entitled to child benefit. There's loads of families who don't need it.
Adopters aren't picky and given a choice. White couples are only allowed to adopt white children in this country and it's perfectly understandable why someone would prefer to adopt a healthy child. The older ones also have amny pyschological problems, so it's no wonder adopters would like to take on babies.
But this leads to 1000s of kids left abandoned in care because every one gets a cchoice. Many of these older kids do fine, if people had the courage to take on the challenge.
Quote: sootyj @ August 12 2009, 1:18 AM BSTBut this leads to 1000s of kids left abandoned in care because every one gets a cchoice. Many of these older kids do fine, if people had the courage to take on the challenge.
But they don't get a choice. It's because adopters don't match what the agencies want for the children. And why should those unable to have their own biological children be some sort of matyrs taking on the children who are much, much harder to parent?
Quote: Renegade Carpark @ August 12 2009, 1:13 AM BSTSegregation -
It's quite simple, we just build some walls around our cities. Honest, decent, hard working, law abiding citizens get to live in paradise within the walls. Scum have to live 'Mad Max' style outside the walls.
It's a punishment / reward scheme I'm quite fond of.
I kinda agree on this one, provided those who work to reintegrate are allowed back in. Frankly living in a nice bit of London I am utterly pissed off with the number of Stella drinking, wastes of skin who live on HB in flats I'll never be able to afford.
Don't want to work?
Then f**k off to where there aren't any jobs.
Quote: Dolly Dagger @ August 12 2009, 1:21 AM BSTBut they don't get a choice. It's because adopters don't match what the agencies want for the children. And why should those unable to have their own biological children be some sort of matyrs taking on the children who are much, much harder to parent?
Because being part of a fair society isn't always about getting what you want. Some times losing freedom of choice is liberating.
Quote: sootyj @ August 12 2009, 1:12 AM BSTToo be honest I think we should bite the bullet on making benefits conditional. We do it for employment where you must prove your an active job seeker. So why not child benefit etc?
Also we need to be far harsher on taking kids into care and putting them up for adoption. At the same time as giving adopters less choice, to beat the
"I want a white healthy 2 month baby only please!"
Syndrome.
It's funny you should say that, because I've heard a few stories about how the authorities often don't let white couples adopt black babies, because they fear they won't know enough about their culture to bring them up properly.