Quote: bigfella @ August 11 2009, 9:14 PM BSTWhat Dolly said.
Well, true, at least to an extent - but what role does society have to play in that? It's hardly as if it's portrayed as acceptable behaviour on TV or in films, is it?
Baby P's killers Page 7
Quote: Aaron @ August 11 2009, 9:55 PM BSTWell, true, at least to an extent - but what role does society have to play in that? It's hardly as if it's portrayed as acceptable behaviour on TV or in films, is it?
But in their society, family, neighbourhood, etc wives get beaten, kids play outside cold, children are shouted at, etc, so these things become normal.
Quote: sootyj @ August 11 2009, 9:43 PM BSTThe problem is social services as much as anyone is subject to the whims and fashions of government.
That sounds about right. Under New Labour this country is increasingly run by centralised dictat, with no respect for the experience and expertise of those at the sharp end. No-one is trusted to use their own judgement, they are all just drones who are expected to follow procedures. Mostly this is the authorities reacting to the howls of outrage orchestrated by the media c**ts whenever anyone makes a mistake, but the result is that the whole system, rather than the rogue individual, becomes unfit for purpose.
I'm not so sure you can just blame the way they were raised/their community for the sort of things they did in this case. They must surely be a bit deranged too.
Quote: zooo @ August 11 2009, 10:00 PM BSTI'm not so sure you can just blame the way they were raised/their community for the sort of things they did in this case. They must surely be a bit deranged too.
But they're deranged because of their upbringing. I'm sure it's no coincidence the mother was raised in povety by a convicted paedophile and a (I think) drug addict mother. I wouldn't be surprised if the step-father in this case was beaten himself as a child.
Mmmm, maybe.
Quote: sootyj @ August 11 2009, 9:22 PM BSTthe relationship between the adults could have been broken up
F**king hell. That is possiblt the most scary, evil thing that you've ever suggested.
Quote: Dolly Dagger @ August 11 2009, 9:58 PM BSTBut in their society, family, neighbourhood, etc wives get beaten, kids play outside cold, children are shouted at, etc, so these things become normal.
Yes, but that's rephrasing the original question, no? I can't be bothered to go back and check, but I think it was something like "have we as a society...".
Quote: Timbo @ August 11 2009, 9:58 PM BSTThat sounds about right. Under New Labour this country is increasingly run by centralised dictat, with no respect for the experience and expertise of those at the sharp end. No-one is trusted to use their own judgement, they are all just drones who are expected to follow procedures. Mostly this is the authorities reacting to the howls of outrage orchestrated by the media c**ts whenever anyone makes a mistake, but the result is that the whole system, rather than the rogue individual, becomes unfit for purpose.
Quote: Aaron @ August 11 2009, 10:43 PM BSTF**king hell. That is possiblt the most scary, evil thing that you've ever suggested.
Well it happens all the time. The scenario is more like that single mum starts going out with a convicted paedophile. Some one complains to social services. They tell mum it's an unsafe home for the kids choose.
Bit of a blunt example.
Also in the P case the mother herself may have been an enabler and a concealer, there seems little evidence she was an abuser. If the blokes had left and she'd been given some support to be a better mother?
Quote: Timbo @ August 11 2009, 9:58 PM BSTThat sounds about right. Under New Labour this country is increasingly run by centralised dictat, with no respect for the experience and expertise of those at the sharp end. No-one is trusted to use their own judgement, they are all just drones who are expected to follow procedures. Mostly this is the authorities reacting to the howls of outrage orchestrated by the media c**ts whenever anyone makes a mistake, but the result is that the whole system, rather than the rogue individual, becomes unfit for purpose.
It's not like this for the sheer hell of it. It may go over the top, but centralised care policy has helped root out circles of abuse in care homes, police refusing to investigate minority abuse and in the Orkney case deranged feminism.
Quote: sootyj @ August 11 2009, 10:52 PM BSTWell it happens all the time. The scenario is more like that single mum starts going out with a convicted paedophile. Some one complains to social services. They tell mum it's an unsafe home for the kids choose.
But that's still a choice for the mother, just an informed one. You seemed to be suggesting a state-enforced relationship breakup.
Quote: Aaron @ August 11 2009, 10:54 PM BSTBut that's still a choice for the mother, just an informed one. You seemed to be suggesting a state-enforced relationship breakup.
Ok the formulae is more.
Child can not live in home with person who is a danger to them, ergo either child or threat must be removed.
And in fairness the threat partner is quite often the one chosen.
Oddly enough they apply this to people more than dogs...go figure.
We can play the 'If only...' blame game all day long, it won't change what has happened.
(BTW the ones to blame are the mother and the two brothers in case you were wondering.)
The sentencing however, was a total joke. Once again, I am convinced that Judges don't live in the real world. How could such a paultry sentence do anything but cause public indignation?
It's a shame the murderers didn't rob a jewellery shop, then we know they would have got a mandatory 15 years behind bars.
What's a baby's life compared to some shiny rocks though?
Quote: Renegade Carpark @ August 11 2009, 11:30 PM BSTThe sentencing however, was a total joke. Once again, I am convinced that Judges don't live in the real world. How could such a paultry sentence do anything but cause public indignation?
Judging tends to be bound by Government-imposed limits and "guidelines" (read: strick Nazi-esque state-controlled rules). I've seen plenty of cases with such pathetic sentences, and when read further found that the judge had actually said in his summing up that he would like to give a greater sentence/penalty, but that the Home Secretary will not allow it.
So you can blame the lovey-dovey "we'll make everything a crime but build no prisons" Labour c**ts for that one.
Quote: sootyj @ August 11 2009, 10:52 PM BSTIt's not like this for the sheer hell of it. It may go over the top, but centralised care policy has helped root out circles of abuse in care homes, police refusing to investigate minority abuse and in the Orkney case deranged feminism.
Yeah, but what would be nice would be some common sense middle ground - properly exercised management control without tying everyone's hands behind their backs.
Quote: The Giggle-o @ August 11 2009, 11:58 PM BSTI shall fondly remember as Petits Pois.
Why have you written this?
Quote: Dolly Dagger @ August 11 2009, 10:04 PM BSTBut they're deranged because of their upbringing. I'm sure it's no coincidence the mother was raised in povety by a convicted paedophile and a (I think) drug addict mother. I wouldn't be surprised if the step-father in this case was beaten himself as a child.
Abuse definitely passes from one generation to the next. I remember when Fred West was first sent to prison, and there were some f**ked up stories about his childhood, in the papers.