The Science Thread Page 2

Sorry, have to carry on with this time travel stuff.

OK, me and Scotty are on this planet looking at planet Earth in the year 1909.
We start searching for a skinny looking 20 year old Austrian with a bad haircut.
Eventually we spot Adolf, Scotty locks on and we beam him straight to the planet we are on so we can give him a serious slapping.

Now, will Adolf be standing next to us saying 'what the f**k just happened' or won't we see him because he was already on this planet a hundred years before we were?
I imagine that we will actually have him next to us.

Now there's me, Scotty and a more than just slightly niffed Adolf standing on this planet looking at Earth in 1909. Now we all beam back to Earth at the same time, we all travel the same amount of light years in the same amount of seconds so theoretically we should all be back on Earth together.

Question; Have me and Scotty just traveled back in time, or has Adolf traveled forward into the future?

Not that I'm planning on actually doing this.

OK not very realistic as beaming sounds very science fiction but hyperspace could acheive the same results.

Quote: Afinkawan @ July 21 2009, 10:05 AM BST

Yes. What Fred said. When you look at stars you are not travelling in time, you are looking back in time because the light takes so long to reach us. The stars are still there in 2009 (mostly) but we won't see the light they are currently emitting for a long time yet.

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Correct we are only looking back in time, but if we manage to break the Universe speed limit and travel to this star at the point in time as we veiw it from Earth today then we have time travelled havent we?

Quote: hey_nonny @ July 21 2009, 10:19 AM BST

Sorry, have to carry on with this time travel stuff.

OK, me and Scotty are on this planet looking at planet Earth in the year 1909.
We start searching for a skinny looking 20 year old Austrian with a bad haircut.
Eventually we spot Adolf, Scotty locks on and we beam him straight to the planet we are on so we can give him a serious slapping.

Now, will Adolf be standing next to us saying 'what the f**k just happened' or won't we see him because he was already on this planet a hundred years before we were?
I imagine that we will actually have him next to us.

Now there's me, Scotty and a more than just slightly niffed Adolf standing on this planet looking at Earth in 1909. Now we all beam back to Earth at the same time, we all travel the same amount of light years in the same amount of seconds so theoretically we should all be back on Earth together.

Question; Have me and Scotty just traveled back in time, or has Adolf traveled forward into the future?

Not that I'm planning on actually doing this.

OK not very realistic as beaming sounds very science fiction but hyperspace could acheive the same results.

Correct we are only looking back in time, but if we manage to break the Universe speed limit and travel to this star at the point in time as we veiw it from Earth today then we have time travelled havent we?

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Two thousand and Nein

Quote: Fred Sunshine @ July 21 2009, 10:20 AM BST

Two thousand and Nein

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How can you dismiss it so easily.
Time as we see time is regulated by the speed of light, if we can break light speed we can manipulate time, or at least what we view to be 'time'.

The shortest point between a and b isn't a direct line, light tavels mostly in a direct line, ok I know light can be bent and there are naturally occuring instances in the universe where light is bent, if its possible to bend light it must be possible to somehow bend space, thus creating hyperspace and beating light to point b.

Surely if there was such a thing as Time Travel Hitler would have been dead a thousand times over by now, on account that he's the poor bastard everybody says they're going to go back and kill.

Nobody bothers with Pol Pot, Stalin, Bin Laden or Ming the Merciless, it's always Hitler Hitler Hitler. Like he's the only evil tyrant in history.

Quote: hey_nonny @ July 21 2009, 10:46 AM BST

How can you dismiss it so easily.
Time as we see time is regulated by the speed of light, if we can break light speed we can manipulate time, or at least what we view to be 'time'.

The shortest point between a and b isn't a direct line, light tavels mostly in a direct line, ok I know light can be bent and there are naturally occuring instances in the universe where light is bent, if its possible to bend light it must be possible to somehow bend space, thus creating hyperspace and beating light to point b.

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"Eventually we spot Adolf, Scotty locks on and we beam him straight to the planet we are on so we can give him a serious slapping."

If I'm understanding this part correctly, you are looking at the light from a person who has been dead for over 60 years & attempting to beam this light signature over to you and then giving it a slap

I'm not sure it can be done.

Re: Beaming Hitler from the Past to another planet whilst hey_nonny and a deceased Star Trek actor punch him in the face -

Let's assume you and Scotty can beam images from the past to the present (a bit like the Beeb did with Reggie Perrin) and that you can make these images into living flesh.

You then have the problem of Causality. If you stop Hitler from being a wacky, invading, holocausting type funster, then you stop World War 2 from happening and change history - resulting in you not being born and Star Trek never being commissioned.

The effects of Causality have been explained in great detail in a Halloween episode of the Simpsons - and you can't get more science-y then that.

Quote: Griff @ July 21 2009, 10:19 AM BST

One of the most gripping books I've ever read was

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Upon seeing the title of this thread I was going to post about that very book, as well his equally fascinating book about the discipline of proof in mathematics:

Where's Mr Singh from?

Quote: Griff @ July 21 2009, 10:19 AM BST

N.B. I have met Simon Singh and he is a smashing chap.

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What's the latest in his current legal battle? He wrote an article suggesting that some chiropractors claiming to be able to cure childhood ailments may be charlatans and then he was found guilty of libel (I think) and now he's challenging the verdict (I think).

Quote: Kenneth @ July 21 2009, 12:04 PM BST

What's the latest in his current legal battle? He wrote an article suggesting that some chiropracters claiming to be able to cure childhood ailments may be charlatans and then he was found guilty of libel (I think) and now he's challenging the verdict (I think).

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He's THAT Simon singh? I have actually heard of him, then.

Right.

No you won't be beaming back Hitler from 1909. Regardless of what light you happen to be looking at, time has moved on from 1909.

It is impossible to travel faster than the speed of light. It might be possible to take a short cut but you would be travelling a shorter distance rather than travelling faster. Imagine two cars travelling from one side of London to the other. Both set off at 100mph. One goes directly across London, one goes round the M25.

One car will get there before the other, not because it has travelled faster but because it has travelled a shorter distance between the start and end points.

What you have to remember is that the light you are viewing from the stars set out a long time ago. You are not viewing something current. If you could break the light speed barrier then perhaps you would travel back in time, but that doesn't mean you would arrive in 1909 just because you happened to be looking at light from 1909 when you left. The two things aren't connected.

Quote: Griff @ July 21 2009, 12:05 PM BST

I'm not up to date on that, I'll have to Google.

I did like his piece about Katie Melua's scientific failings.

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Christ, I definitely know him. And fair play to Melua, she took it in very good humour. Plus she's quite hot, which never hurts.

Quote: Griff @ July 21 2009, 10:19 AM BST

Scientists ummed and ahhed and guessed at different combinations of atomic reactions until they found something that would theoretically produce a result consistent with the known Universe. However, if their theory was true, it would mean that something called cosmic microwave background radiation would have to exist throughout the Universe. That's quite a startling claim to make with nothing more than theory to back you up, since no such thing had ever been found. However, sixteen years later, astrophysicists discovered exactly the radiation they had predicted (and were awarded the Nobel Prize for it).

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Pretty amazing but also exactly how science is supposed to work - observe something, come up with a hypothesis to explain the known facts, make a prediction, test the prediction.

It's exactly this type of method which has led to hundreds of people spending ten years and billions of pounds building the LHC to go looking for the Higgs Boson (among other things).

Quote: chipolata @ July 21 2009, 10:59 AM BST

Surely if there was such a thing as Time Travel Hitler would have been dead a thousand times over by now, on account that he's the poor bastard everybody says they're going to go back and kill.

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Nope. That question was answered by Tom Baker in Genesis of the Daleks:

The Doctor: If someone who knew the future, pointed out a child to you and told you that that child would grow up totally evil, to be a ruthless dictator who would destroy millions of lives... could you then kill that child?

The Doctor: But if I kill, wipe out a whole intelligent life form, then I become like them. I'd be no better than the Daleks.

Quote: Kenneth @ July 21 2009, 12:12 PM BST

Nope. That question was answered by Tom Baker in Genesis of the Daleks:

The Doctor: If someone who knew the future, pointed out a child to you and told you that that child would grow up totally evil, to be a ruthless dictator who would destroy millions of lives... could you then kill that child?

Sarah: We're talking about the Daleks. The most evil creatures ever invented. You must destroy them. You must complete your mission for the Time Lords!

The Doctor: Do I have the right? Simply touch one wire against the other and that's it. The Daleks cease to exist. Hundreds of millions of people, thousands of generations can live without fear... in peace, and never even know the word "Dalek".

Sarah: Then why wait? If it was a disease or some sort of bacteria you were destroying, you wouldn't hesitate.

The Doctor: But if I kill, wipe out a whole intelligent life form, then I become like them. I'd be no better than the Daleks.

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That doesn't answer my question at all. You're pre-supposing that any time travellers will have the doctor's moral framework.