Racism in Comedy

What would you say is right / wrong in comedy, in a "poking fun at foreigners" way? For instance, if there was a line in a modern sitcom script about Jews being tight with money it'd probably never make it to the screen. But put a line in about the French being garlic-sucking war cowards and we can't get enough.

Similarly, jokes about the Irish are very rare nowadays, whereas it's still open season on the Welsh. It's fine to call the Americans gun-toting, obese war-mongerers, but don't ever laugh at Pakistanis.

Chris Rock balances his act with attacks on both blacks and whites, but a white comedian would never get away with it (not a mainstream one, anyway). Goodness Gracious Me's "Going For An English" sketch is very funny and clever, but it's basically taking the piss out of drunk British people and the appalling way they behave in Indian restaurants. Which is absolutely fine by me, because it's true. But a white sketch troupe would never be able to do a piss-take skit about Asians.

So I was just wondering what you guys thought about it. Do you think it's right that we should choose our comedy targets very carefully, or do you think the world would be a easier place if comedy was on an even playing field?

Personally I'm on the fence on this one. I'm not sure what I think. How about you?

Quote: Lee Henman @ July 17 2009, 8:46 PM BST

if there was a line in a modern sitcom script about Jews being tight with money it'd probably never make it to the screen.

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Not if you're being ironic, apparently.

Quote: Lee Henman @ July 17 2009, 8:46 PM BST

Similarly, jokes about the Irish are very rare nowadays, whereas it's still open season on the Welsh.

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Also it's open season on people from East Anglia, which is unfair to everyone in that family.

I think the main consideration is whether or not the people you make jokes about have themselves already suffered 'proper' racism. So jokes by whites at the expense of Pakistanis could be seen as part of a larger and more sinister development, whereas jokes at the expense of whites, by Pakistanis, can't easily be seen in that way.

What might be interesting would be to know if illegal immigrants make jokes about their unwilling hosts. Something like "what's the difference between your soapy back, and the British state ? It's very difficult to sponge off your soapy back" might be very offensive to certain Mail-readers.

I've never had a problem with this. It's very simple - are you playing on people's fears and prejudices, or are you shining a light on differences by saying something new? 'Going For An English' is so well remembered and popular because it showed English people to themselves in a novel light. Jokes about mean Jews say nothing new - to be more current, Jimmy Carr jokes about gypsies and chavs are distinguished only by the fact that Carr's jokes are more competently written than most. They may even be funny, so you often read middle class reviewers writing about laughing and feeling guilty about it.

The best illustration of this would be to go and watch Al Murray performing his pub landlord character in London, and see how the audience laugh, as Leevil points out, at being in on the irony. Then go and watch him in the Home Counties and watch his xenophobic material being applauded as if it were 'Question Time.'

Dave

Quote: Anorak @ July 17 2009, 9:14 PM BST

I've never had a problem with this. It's very simple - are you playing on people's fears and prejudices, or are you shining a light on differences by saying something new? 'Going For An English' is so well remembered and popular because it showed English people to themselves in a novel light.

Dave

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I'm not sure it did now I think about it...it pointed out an obvious failing of pissed Brits that has been done before in comedy. I've seen the pissed-up arsehole calling the Indian waiter Gunga Din on TV before. I think the role-reversal idea was very clever, but the actual heart of the gag - that Brits behave badly in Indian restaurants, is an old one I think.

Also, are you saying that if someone was to write an insightful, witty sketch that shone a light on the Asian community in a new, novel way, that it would make to our screens? I personally doubt it. People are much too scared.

Whenever you look back at shows like the Comedians and you see Bernard Manning saying 'There were these two Pakis...', it does make you cringe with unbelievable embarrassment.

On the other hand, I've made a few jokes on here about living in Hackney and being stabbed by angry Black men, of course I'm being ironic, but there is a tinge of truth which makes the jokes identifiable and therefore funny.

I always feel the most sorry for the Chinese community in Western nations, I've never seen one group more victimised in comedy then these poor fellows. They've shown themselves to be a remarkable people by taking it in their stride, not causing a fuss and getting on with being successfully integrated into various communities worldwide. We should applaud them for their grace and good humour.

Speaking of which, here is a joke I invented - What do you call a fat Chink? A Chunk.

Quote: Lee Henman @ July 17 2009, 8:46 PM BST

For instance, if there was a line in a modern sitcom script about Jews being tight with money it'd probably never make it to the screen.

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Exactly. If there was a line in a modern sitcom script about black men having massive penises, that wouldn't make it to the screen either.

It's a generalisation. I'm tight with money and I have a massive penis but I'm not black nor Jewish.

No, you're just tightfisted with your penis.

Well Lee, I can think of quite a few good examples of non-white characters on the telly that have made it through the BBC's contorted system of self censorship
- Sanjeev Kohli in 'Still Game' works well because they've gone for the comedy of his character. So although he's playing a shopkeeper in an Asian mini market there's nothing racist about it.

And there was a great kids' sitcom recently called 'Kerching' about a black kid at school and his family.

'Taking The Flak' has been criticised on this site for a number of reasons, but even those who dislike it admit that the writing about Africa, and the African characters themselves, is better than what we've become used to.

But you're right, we've still got a hell of a way to go. It's a tough call for the Beeb, who let's face it make or show 95% of our work. They either get black people writing about black people, and are accused of ghettoism, or get white people writing about black people (first series of 'The Crouches') and get accused of being patronising.

Quote: Leevil @ July 17 2009, 9:34 PM BST

No, you're just tightfisted with your penis.

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Are you serious? I wish I could get my hands around it!

You got a big belly?

So many factors here in my opinion.

It partly depends on your fan base. If enough people love you, you're cute and speak with a Southern drawl, you'll get away with saying exactly the same thing that would get a fat ugly uncouth Northerner like Manning pilloried. Al Murray is notably borderline, I can't decide if he's fat and ugly.

If you label it (as Leevil says) as ironic then people will still laugh at what is essentially a racist joke but in an 'enlightened' sense. Making the racist the butt, apparently gives a guilt-free laugh. There's a certain Little Britain sketch where the audience are laughing at what's essentially a filthy racist tirade before the camera reveal. If they laughed after the tirade, then yes, it was ironic and the racist is the jerk. But before the reveal there's absolutely no excuse for the audience to laugh. Ironic, post-ironic, or not. And I'm awkwardly aware of a certain video of ours which does stretch that boundary.

The odd selection of acceptable and non-acceptable targets that you rightly note, LeeH, is ludicrous and an example of PC hypocrisy. Either all nations / races are off the list of acceptable targets or all are on it. But Political Correctness reveals that it's not interested in true fairness and equality in society; it's more about establishing a new order of inequality. The way forward is real equality for all, not overcompensation for historical injustice. The new system of inequality ensures that the pendulum will eventually swing back and forth, as it has done repeatedly.

That the colour of your skin (Chris Rock / GGM) determines whether what you say is racist is another example of this new inequality. Surely it's the content that makes it racist, not the person (or their ethnicity) that spoke it?

When it comes to racism, religion, or other touchy subjects, it should be all or nothing. Either everything is open to comedy or it's all off-limits. For certain cultures and heritages it's open season for anyone from inside AND outside said culture to make remarks that would be totally unacceptable coming from a white middle-class comedian.

Quote: Leevil @ July 17 2009, 9:37 PM BST

You got a big belly?

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No, he's arthritic.

Double post apologies.

Double forgiveness granted.