F***ing Hypocrites Page 3

Quote: Frankie Rage @ August 2, 2007, 3:18 PM

As for comparing 4laughs to BSG, why wouldn't I compare web sites with one another? Both sites would seem to have something to offer. It's normal to compare, geezer...

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Well its unfair to judge because the resources are different. In my opinion the BSG does a hell of alot with a brilliant but small dedicated team, basically Mark and Aaron. Compared that with 4laughs who have comparitively unlimited resources and do very little.

Anyway I understand your view Frankie, its just your walking the walk comment annoyed me a bit. I apologise.

I think the main difference between the BSG and 4laughs is that the BSG is user led which is much better I think. I would rather win something voted on by my fellow writers than a arbitrary judge.

Quote: ContainsNuts @ August 2, 2007, 4:40 PM

A broken website has done a few people wrong, plus it seems to not offer writers much as they like videos and audio clips.

I don't like this 'if you don't like it do something better or shut it' attitude, that isn't my point. My point is if you are going to do something do it properly and get the basics right.

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I agree it would be better if the mechanics of the 4laughs site worked consistently. Nobody on 4laughs (including the Editors) would disagree with that. But to say anybody has been 'wronged' because of this is a bit much surely...

4laughs offers writers script competitions, feedback and prizes also there is a Test Bed Forum similar to 'critique' and obviously video clips and audio clips start off as scripts... and if you can't see an opportunity for writers somewhere in there (via networking) then well, fair enough, mate...

My point is, I don't like the slagging off that 4laughs get's on this site... I have been on 4laughs since August 2006 (warts and all) and I think the criticism of 4laughs is way over the top...

If you have a different opinion then fair enough... can we agree to differ?

Quote: ajp29 @ August 2, 2007, 4:52 PM

Well its unfair to judge because the resources are different. In my opinion the BSG does a hell of alot with a brilliant but small dedicated team, basically Mark and Aaron. Compared that with 4laughs who have comparitively unlimited resources and do very little.

Anyway I understand your view Frankie, its just your walking the walk comment annoyed me a bit. I apologise.

I think the main difference between the BSG and 4laughs is that the BSG is user led which is much better I think. I would rather win something voted on by my fellow writers than a arbitrary judge.

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I am sorry too mate I was getting defensive because there seemed to be a lot of criticism of 4laughs and that site has meant a lot to me and my chums over the last year. I thought some of the criticism of 4laughs was a bit unfair and I was lashing out a bit.

My group feels that 4laughs has done enough for us that we would want to keep supporting 4laughs. It's basically our base.

I don't think 4laughs do have a huge amount of resource in reality, I think they are a poor cousin in terms of Channel 4 overall budget. Budgets may be bigger than BSG but the dedication offered by Aaron and Mark is probably worth it's weight in gold, compared to the 4laughs Editors who are salaried and are probably constrained politically as well as financially.

I am fan of The Slaggs and they mentioned BSG and so I came and had a look. I like the BSG site but I'm new. It takes a while to get used to a different set of folks and a different house style and values.

No harm done on my side geezer...

Apologies all round, cheers

I don't know why this is all annoying you Frankie, we are having a go at 4Laughs and not you. Why are you taking it personally? I know people that follow the 'don't copy and paste' into the text box rule and have written 1000+ words only for the login to timeout and they lose the lot. I'm sorry but that is a joke in its self. It should be aiding the writing not hindering it.

I just tried to visit the site just now and all I got was 'No suitable nodes are available to serve your request.' That sums it up.

I've had a pop at the site (from a professional point of view) and the judging (which is wrongly subjective) you've agreed to some degree with these points so I don't know what the harsh crit is that you are referring to.

I didn't see the latest script comp, as I left because for a long time they had absolutely no script comps. I'm actually going to enter it. I've always said I would go back if it sorted itself out, I'm not going to cut off my nose to bleed all over my face (might check that later).

I'm going to land firmly in the middle on this one (not like me is it?)

Frankie has some good points. On the plus side of 4Laughs:

The Slaggs owe 4Laughs and all those regulars on that site (4Laughers) a great debt for instilling some belief in ourselves. So thanks to all those of you who know us on 'the other side', we're genuinely indebted to you.

Whereas here we tend to concentrate on scripts, 4Laughs is a great site for networking with people working in the same medium and format as yourself. Yes, for now, I'm ignoring BSGs soon-to-be projects which will be developed further.

4Laughs has driven The Slaggs to write on themes and in formats we'd never really have tried. For example, I loved the 10 second silent competition. I'd never have tried that without 4Laughs and it proves to all the contributors that they can write to somebody else's brief.

The winner selection can be subjective but in some competitions we users could rate submissions and the top 5 were creamed off.

On the neg side:

The forum, although it appears to be part of the 4Laughs package, is actually a sub-forum of the C4 forum. The moderation there is not thought out and has alienated many regulars. That so many 4Laughers are moving towards BSG is testament to Mark and Aaron's attention to detail and (generally ) sensible moderation. I think we've only seen 3 bans on BSG.

The implied concept that C4 bosses would be headhunting new talent has been revealed to be a bit of a fallacy when not even MidgetGems, JunkMales, and Yielding (undisputed masters in their own formats) were singled out. One of the prime reasons the Slaggs came so late to the party as opposed to not at all was the idea that C4 execs would see our work. A few 4Laughers won some big money prizes that they've put into equipment but generally the prizes are now DVDs. But there were no masterclasses, no invites to Horseferry Road, and for us not even a mug.

I'm led to believe that 4Laughs (like BBC's ComedySoup) is a seperate entity to C4. They are a sub-contracted company. The guys and gals there do a great job but their hands are metaphorically tied because they have to abide by the politics of C4, and have to try to negotiate with the forum mods on the more insensitive decisions that have been made. In many ways 4Laughs is trapped in the middle of C4 and the 4Laughers. That they've kept the balance for so long and so well is credit to them.

The least positive point of all is that C4 themselves are the biggest losers in this, because they are ignoring a hotbed of new writers / producers that (in Yielding / Zeal's case) are going to be syphoned off by other companies. Most of the big broadcasters make a fuss about hotbedding new talent and then (conveniently?) overlook the very areas they set aside to develop it.

So in general, 4Laughs is flawed but oddly it isn't totally in the hands of 4Laughs. They can only do what they are allowed to do and they usually work well within the limits imposed. That the ladder system works but that the C4 talent hunting system doesn't is clear in that the acts in the top 5 are destined to be cherrypicked elsewhere if C4 continue to overlook them.

The thing is that Chris Norman's hands are tied half the time by channel 4 red tape but he does try to offer support whenever he can. Speaking from personal experience, I have a good relationship with Chris. In the past he has sent me bits and pieces I would be interested in and also played a big part in smoothing over my recent war with the channel 4 forum moderators over the removal of Yielding's support messages. The mods tried to ban me after I got upset with them over the subject and I was so digusted, I planned on leaving. It was Chris Norman who stopped me, offering 100% support, telling me I had NOTHING to apologise for, and a day later my ban was lifted WITH AN APOLOGY!!!! It shows that if they could, the 4laughs crew would.

I also don't think it's fair to bunch 4laughs and the forums into the same group. The problem with the mods at channel 4 is they don't always check flagged posts before deleting. When a post is flagged by another user, the mods are meant to check for rule breaking or possible offence. If it does, delete, if not, leave. But (and the mods never own up to this ever) they have a bad habit of deleting without checking. Sadly, Yielding was the target of a flagger who decided to report anything he posted, even if it was "Hi". While Yielding didn't get banned, all his posts were deleted and, for a guy who found communication hard, this was tough on him and he left the forum. If the mods had carried out their checks, they would have seen that the posts never broke rules or were offensive and the flagger wouldn't have had their fun.

Also, the thing about policy is that people forget they are not rules, they are guidelines and when that mistake is made, they become ridged with no flexability for special circumstances. I am the last person to support the mods at 4 (they even got me to the point of saying the F word.....A lot....I hardly ever! "Poo" is usually the rudest thing I come out with....)but don't tar the 4laughs crew with the same moldy ickie brush.

Quote: Frankie Rage @ August 2, 2007, 4:12 PM

Mark - thanks for that - I appreciate your comments!

Here's a clue to how a section of the contributors on 4laughs see it...

It's NOT the monetary prizes or 'stuff' (DVD's, cameras, etc.) it's the RECOGNITION via the points/Comedy Ladder mechanism, coupled with the ability to profile and showcase ourselves...

Frankie xxx

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Er... what 'recognition' might that be then? One bloke's been 2nd on there for quite a while now and erm ... well ... hmm.
Hehe.

I think I pointed out MidgetGems for special mention, (imo) he seems to me a bit overlooked on 4Laughs, despite his fantastic points tally and he is a fantastic guy. Kept my chin up on a few occassions. Cheers for that, MG, if you're out there.

Anyone who can cling on to Yielding's coat tails and keep in touching distance over a year is a great writer / producer.

Quote: ContainsNuts @ August 2, 2007, 5:53 PM

I don't know why this is all annoying you Frankie, we are having a go at 4Laughs and not you. Why are you taking it personally?

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I'm not taking it personally mate!

I'm just supporting "4laughs", a site I genuinely believe in!

Aren't I allowed to do that then?

I like this site as well by the way...

Quote: Croydesponger @ August 2, 2007, 11:46 PM

Er... what 'recognition' might that be then? One bloke's been 2nd on there for quite a while now and erm ... well ... hmm.
Hehe.

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Don't know about that, I heard he got a call from Barrymore and Langham about a three hander idea they had...

I mean recognition from our peers mostly although one pro writer did PM me a couple of times about things the Junk Males have done.. Being on the 4laughs Comedy Ladder has made us more visible on the site..

When you have had no reccognition then it's a confidence boost to get ANY recognition..

Hehe.

Quote: Frankie Rage @ August 3, 2007, 12:14 PM

I'm not taking it personally mate!

I'm just supporting "4laughs", a site I genuinely believe in!

Aren't I allowed to do that then?

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Of course you are but you said your were getting annoyed by the comments. That is taking it to heart, even tho you did agree with my points to some extent. These are just opinions, I've said positive things about the actual concept.

You are welcome to start a topic titled '4Laughs is the best thing since sliced Mozzerella' and I'll comment on the positives too such as if I didn't have the mug they sent me I would have seven degree burns on my feet every morning.

Quote: ContainsNuts @ August 3, 2007, 2:31 PM

Of course you are but you said your were getting annoyed by the comments. That is taking it to heart, even tho you did agree with my points to some extent. These are just opinions, I've said positive things about the actual concept.

You are welcome to start a topic titled '4Laughs is the best thing since sliced Mozzerella' and I'll comment on the positives too such as if I didn't have the mug they sent me I would have seven degree burns on my feet every morning.

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mines full of pens that don't write or pencils that need sharpening!

...it was more exasperated than annoyed, but I am happy to move on to other things we can bitch about...

*slightly drunk* Slaggs you put a good point forward but sites like this shouldnt be around as a "middle ground" for writers as a very large majority of us really want to get somewhere and a site saying this and that about winning great writiing prizes and not delivery isn't what (me especially) am looking for in a comedy career.

imo if 4laughs are serious about finding talent they should have direct contact with channel 4 commissioners getting rid of this red tape! Or its a pointless and pocket change making site!

PS mentioned Im slightly drunk incase I came out with a ramble or a lump of turd of a responce

Paul, you should see some of the stuff I've written on here when drunk. Yours was at least sensible.

Agree with you that 4Laughs has had its hands tied by C4. And agree that it was also implicitly and explicitly suggested that C4 would talent scout the site. But that responsibility is C4's rather than 4Laughs. It's like the counter staff at Easy Jet. They're at the front line, taking the stick for their employer's failings and backtracking.

I can't kick 4Laughs because they've given us 4Laughers huge motivation to take comedy more seriously. Plus they've given us a sense of community that only this site can best.

Congrats on your placing in the script competition btw.

*Not drunk anymore* Us Tech Guys work hard and play hard!

As I mentioned in my other post red tape seems to get in the way with sites like 4laughs, which is a shame, and people probably enjoy the site besides that, no doubt... Just when I first went on the site I put a lot of my work on and did challenge me but still felt there was more taking than giving at the end of the day... Unlike this site, I may not win anything but I get feedback on my work and there's always comforting atmosphere.

You could say this forum is a lot like the sitcom Cheers but with more drunk people and nobody cares about your name!

And thanks Slags I don't think 4laughs have given me a break in a comp in about 3 months (probably cause I bitch too much) lol

PSS - Just been on the site and they're adding more features... See moaning works! All they need to do now is have a forum you can say "gosh darn it" without being banned!

Quote: SlagA @ August 3, 2007, 10:23 PM

Agree with you that 4Laughs has had its hands tied by C4. And agree that it was also implicitly and explicitly suggested that C4 would talent scout the site.

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Yes, I met some people on a night out (read salsa lesson) who work for Granada on the production team producing Coronation St, the odd documentary etc... and their advice for a struggling writer was to throw yourself into 4laughs, apparently C4 spread the word within the industry that this is their way of nurturing upandcoming talent. I've got nothing against 4laughs, but it is frustrating to keep hearing that line and knowing it's not true.
And no, they wouldn't look at my sitcom script. Even though I said it was based on a documentary (ahem).