NEWBIES - some advice

EDIT - SLAGA - The basic question was about character cast lists but quickly became useful material for all aspiring writers. END EDIT.

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Hi, first post here.

I am currently writing a television series script (half hour sitcom) and I'm around the mid season mark.

One question, which I still can't find the answer to, is who exactly should be in the cast list, underneath the scene heading?

I am aware that the formats and rules are different for various genres and projects.

Final draft, automatically adds any character with a speaking role to the cast list, which is fine. A lot of the time though, there are key characters present, who may not speak during the scene. Obviously, I have been adding these myself. The show is based in a busy environment, where many characters (and extras) will be present at all times (regardless to if the scene is based around them or not). Should I be naming these characters in the cast list too? Should I also name extras in the cast list too (not individually, but naming their presence as simply 'extras')?

On the the script for the first episode, I have named every single type of character in the cast list for every scene, including non speaking roles, background supporting characters and extras, hence a lot of names being mentioned, which might put the reader off. If I don't mention the names, then scenes could become confusing, as my show is generally in real time, meaning characters locations and whereabouts has to make sense, for continuity reasons.

Any advice will be much appreciated here.

Thanks

Quote: Demay @ March 8 2009, 5:28 PM GMT

Hi, first post here.

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Hello!

Quote: Demay @ March 8 2009, 5:28 PM GMT

I am currently writing a television series script (half hour sitcom) and I'm around the mid season mark.

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I'd stop there. Don't write more than one episode. Basic error.

Quote: Demay @ March 8 2009, 5:28 PM GMT

One question, which I still can't find the answer to, is who exactly should be in the cast list, underneath the scene heading?

I am aware that the formats and rules are different for various genres and projects.

View original

Only list people who play an active part in the scene, whether speaking, pulling a face or listening.

Quote: Demay @ March 8 2009, 5:28 PM GMT

Final draft, automatically adds any character with a speaking role to the cast list, which is fine. A lot of the time though, there are key characters present, who may not speak during the scene. Obviously, I have been adding these myself. The show is based in a busy environment, where many characters (and extras) will be present at all times (regardless to if the scene is based around them or not). Should I be naming these characters in the cast list too? Should I also name extras in the cast list too (not individually, but naming their presence as simply 'extras')?

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If it's a one-off character in the scene who plays an active part, just call them MAN #1 or something.

Quote: Demay @ March 8 2009, 5:28 PM GMT

On the the script for the first episode, I have named every single type of character in the cast list for every scene, including non speaking roles, background supporting characters and extras, hence a lot of names being mentioned, which might put the reader off. If I don't mention the names, then scenes could become confusing, as my show is generally in real time, meaning characters locations and whereabouts has to make sense, for continuity reasons.

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Surely, for example, if you have a scene in a bar. Writing 'BUSTLING BAR' will suggest there are lots of people. You don't have to be too specific, unless there are people in the scene for a reason.

The simple answer is don't have a cast list. Introduce your characters and descriptions as and when they appear is all. If there are extras in a cafe, for example, just put 'A BUSY CAFE' in the stage directions. People will work out what is what.

Quote: Marc P @ March 8 2009, 5:34 PM GMT

The simple answer is don't have a cast list. Introduce your characters and descriptions as and when they appear is all. If there are extras in a cafe, for example, just put 'A BUSY CAFE' in the stage directions. People will work out what is what.

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I love it when Marc P agrees with me.

I'd stop there. Don't write more than one episode. Basic error.

Why is this a basic error?

Quote: Michael Everett @ March 8 2009, 5:48 PM GMT

I'd stop there. Don't write more than one episode. Basic error.

Why is this a basic error?

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It depends why you're writing an entire series. If you're doing it for yourself to hone your craft and practice narrative arcs and dialogue and all that bollocks, there's no harm in it. (Although I coudn't be arsed personally).

But if you present a producer with 6 episodes to read they're likely to laugh. (not in a good way) One single episode, whether a pilot or a typical ep from the series is the norm. (Although a lot of people are now just looking for a general outline and a few pages, so check first.)

(Of course I'm assuming that you haven't been already been commissioned to write a full series. If you have, my apologies. And also my seething, burning hatred!)

Thanks for the quick replies.

If final draft is automatically generating a cast list under each scene heading (when written in the half hour sitcom format) then surely that means that this is correct for the format, and the industry standard?

As I said, for continuity reasons, all the characters locations (including the supporting roles) must be specific and detailed. Leaving them off the list or totally disregarding this detail will surely cause much confusion in the near future e.g Production and filming.

As for writing more than one episode, I have been told different. Even on this website, an interview with a known writer advises you to always have a second episode written and ready to go with the pilot that you are sending off.

I have all 6 episodes constructed in my head already, so why would I stop writing? Surely putting creativity on halt, for no apparent reason is a bad thing? I am on episode 4, and the ideas are coming thick and fast. There is no way I am going to stop and wait around.

I am fully aware, that if the pilot did get picked up, then certain changes might be forced/suggested which could completety reshape the show. This is fine.

I'd rather have my ideas documented, and if anything, I enjoy writing them for my own entertainment, to share with my family and freinds.

Quote: Lee Henman @ March 8 2009, 6:00 PM GMT

It depends why you're writing an entire series. If you're doing it for yourself to hone your craft and practice narrative arcs and dialogue and all that bollocks, there's no harm in it. (Although I coudn't be arsed personally).

But if you present a producer with 6 episodes to read they're likely to laugh. One single episode, whether a pilot or a typical ep from the series is the norm. (Although a lot of people are now just looking for a general outline and a few pages, so check first.)

(Of course I'm assuming that you haven't been already been commissioned to write a full series. If you have, my apologies. And also my seething, burning hatred!)

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The episodes would not be sent out all at once though, obviously.

I will be (and have been) sending out single episodes. So far, I have been sending the pilot episode to the production companies that have agreed to take a look at my work.

I still can't see the logic of not bothering to develop your series or characters past one episode.

What if somebody important loves it and asks where it could go from here, or what other ideas have you got? Obviously, the answers would be that I have already written the whole series. Its all on paper.

Quote: Demay @ March 8 2009, 6:15 PM GMT

Thanks for the quick replies.

If final draft is automatically generating a cast list under each scene heading (when written in the half hour sitcom format) then surely that means that this is correct for the format, and the industry standard?

View original

Does it? It doesn't on mine.

Quote: Demay @ March 8 2009, 6:15 PM GMT

As I said, for continuity reasons, all the characters locations (including the supporting roles) must be specific and detailed. Leaving them off the list or totally disregarding this detail will surely cause much confusion in the near future e.g Production and filming.

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Not sure what you mean. If it's lots of characters who are intrical to the plot, then by all means put down that they're present.
But unless you can give us specifics, it's hard to grasp what you mean.

Quote: Demay @ March 8 2009, 6:15 PM GMT

As for writing more than one episode, I have been told different. Even on this website, an interview with a known writer advises you to always have a second episode written and ready to go with the pilot that you are sending off.

I have all 6 episodes constructed in my head already, so why would I stop writing? Surely putting creativity on halt, for no apparent reason is a bad thing? I am on episode 4, and the ideas are coming thick and fast. There is no way I am going to stop and wait around.

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Things will get changed beyond recognition. You might be asked to change the whole setting and that render the rest of your episodes redundant.

And producers will want massive input, so having everything (seemingly) set in stone might put them off getting involved.

And it's not waiting around if you start a new project, is it? Personally once I've written one episode and sent it off, that's it, move on to something new.

Quote: Demay @ March 8 2009, 6:15 PM GMT

I still can't see the logic of not bothering to develop your series or characters past one episode.

What if somebody important loves it and asks where it could go from here, or what other ideas have you got? Obviously, the answers would be that I have already written the whole series. Its all on paper.

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Rob Grant once said when writing a pilot it's best to suggest it can basically go ANYWHERE. That's there's some many possibilities that it will interest a producer. If you've planned a whole series you're basically saying 'It can only go one way. This way. My way'. And they might not like that idea sadly.

Quote: Seefacts @ March 8 2009, 6:31 PM GMT

Does it? It doesn't on mine.

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Yep. It generates the names (in brackets) beneath each location/scene heading.

Quote: Seefacts @ March 8 2009, 6:31 PM GMT

Not sure what you mean. If it's lots of characters who are intrical to the plot, then by all means put down that they're present.
But unless you can give us specifics, it's hard to grasp what you mean.

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Fair enough, the series is centered around a large number of people, who are involved with a specific project. Some of these characters are main roles, others are supporting roles who are more likely to remain in the back ground, with minimal dialogue or attention. Like I said though, these people are still somewhat essential, and their location needs to be documented, to avoid confusion.

Quote: Seefacts @ March 8 2009, 6:31 PM GMT

Things will get changed beyond recognition. You might be asked to change the whole setting and that render the rest of your episodes redundant.

And producers will want massive input, so having everything (seemingly) set in stone might put them off getting involved.

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It might do, but I doubt it, as I will always be open to all ideas, including changes, restructuring and completely rewriting episodes. Its fine. The future directions, plots, and character development will already be documented though, which puts you ahead of the game.

Altering/changing my script is no big deal to me.

Quote: Seefacts @ March 8 2009, 6:31 PM GMT

And it's not waiting around if you start a new project, is it? Personally once I've written one episode and sent it off, that's it, move on to something new.

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I'd like to finsh this series before I move on to a new project. I don't see this as wasting time.

Quote: Seefacts @ March 8 2009, 6:31 PM GMT

Rob Grant once said when writing a pilot it's best to suggest it can basically go ANYWHERE. That's there's some many possibilities that it will interest a producer. If you've planned a whole series you're basically saying 'It can only go one way. This way. My way'. And they might not like that idea sadly.

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I'm not saying that though. As I have already stated, I don't even care about completely rewritting episodes if that is what they want.

At worst, these episodes will be used as templates, meaning that I will have a whole series worth of ideas, character interactions, gags and scenarios to refer to when rewriting.

Would you discourage people from simply documenting further ideas for their pilot? I'm guessing not.

I have greats ideas for this show, and a precise structure from episode one to six. I am not going to disregard these ideas and move along, leaving the rest a mystery for producers to decide. Thats no fun.

Anyways, they might like the other episodes more than the first.

BBC Writersroom asks for "An outline of how you see the series developing"

I've always sent them outlines for other parts.

Quote: Seefacts @ March 8 2009, 5:33 PM GMT

I'd stop there. Don't write more than one episode. Basic error.

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I could hear Mat Holness' IT bloke in The Office saying this.

Saying that you're right, but if the OP wants to write a whole six part series I suppose that's up to them.

Is the character list coming because it's the US sitcom format?

Quote: Dolly Dagger @ March 8 2009, 7:17 PM GMT

I could hear Mat Holness' IT bloke in The Office saying this.

Saying that you're right, but if the OP wants to write a whole six part series I suppose that's up to them.

Is the character list coming because it's the US sitcom format?

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Yeah, that's my natural arsehole-ness coming through.

Obviously people can do what the hell they like, of course!

I'm going to echo all the others' advice. The way I look at it is that while you're punting out the pilot of your first idea, you can concentrate on a new project. That way, if anyone shows interest but eventually rejects it (as can happen) you already have something else you can offer.

As to cast listings for each scene - seems serious overkill. In the scene opening direction, I often list who's in the room by what they happen to be doing at the opening but I keep it v. minimalistic. If anyone enters or exits mid-scene, you cover that at the appropriate place, not at the beginning, where too much info could cause confusion. Simple is always best, you're catering for very tired script reader eyes.

Quote: Dolly Dagger @ March 8 2009, 7:17 PM GMT

Is the character list coming because it's the US sitcom format?

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Possibly, as there is only one half hour sitcom option available. My version seems to be american though, as it only offers an american-english spell check, which is rather annoying.

I can manually switch the automatic cast generator off though, from the overall preferences.

So none of you guys even include a cast list under your scene headings? Surely keeping documentation of who is in each scene makes life easier, when it comes to filming. I often think from the production/filming side too.

Regarding the comments about writing all six episodes, I enjoy it, and its fun.

In a perfect world, a production company might love the idea so much, that they want to film the whole series immediately, with minimal changes or rewrites. Unlikely, but who knows.

Other advantages for writing a whole series, include -

- You will never be stuck for ideas

- You have a clear idea of where the character developments and plots are going

- You are proving to any production company/producer that you are a capable writer, who can follow through and develop a pilot into a series. (Whats the point in hiring a writer who has 10 good ideas, but would struggle to turn any one of them into a full series if required)

- Your writing improves each time you write a script

- The characters and concept stay fresh in your head, as its easy to lose touch with a specific project if you've got several on the go.

- These episodes will be a saviour, one year down the line, when the pilot is comissioned and you are told to write a whole series. You were in the zone at the time, and completely in the world of this project.

- The more time you spend on a project, the more involved you become. Its easy to forget about your characters, or their direction if the script has been gathering virtual dust for 2 years.

- All your ideas are getting documented. Ideas always come and go. You may forget you've even had them. Documenting your ideas, including turning them into full episodes is a good thing.

I can see where people are coming from, with the 'write a pilot and move on swiftly' mentality, but for me, its not fulfilling.

I have 100% confidence that this series is the best thing since sliced bread. I am passionate and almost obsessed with this idea. I have no interest in moving on to another idea, until this series is completed.