Reading around a bit it seems to be suggested that McCartney's talent for song writing is mostly instinctual. However throughout his career with The Beatles he was supported by George Martin's technical knowledge. His orchestral pieces were, as you say Moonstone, composed with the aid of a computer. Were McCartney to have learnt music theory he probably would not have suffered as a song writer. He seems to have got along okay though. 
Quote: SlagA @ February 5 2009, 1:52 PM GMTThere are some songs that I still can't listen to without weeping like a baby
I have sat down to watch Kate Bush's This Woman's Work video so many times and told myself 'right, I'm not gonna cry this time', but I always do 
No shame in that though, it's what the song and video were designed to do.
Quote: Griff @ February 5 2009, 5:22 PM GMTAnyway, you're quite right, anybody wanting to play music should probably not bother even knowing the names of the strings on their guitar, let alone anything as boring as a common language where they can communicate their musical ideas to other musicians, because that just gets in the way of inspiration and creativity. Frankly I don't know why people bother learning anything.
Calm down!
If you take the example of Hendrix he knew the names of chords, but when he wrote or played it was instinctive and for the rest of the band. Drummers don't have lots of theory do they?
Anyway, I just wonder if you get less enjoyment from music if you're dissecting it in such a way instead of having a raw emotional response.
Quote: Griff @ February 5 2009, 5:22 PM GMTI don't know whether McCartney can read manuscript (I'm very surprised to hear he can't given all the orchestral composition he has done)
I remember seeing an interview where he said he had to have everything interpreted by someone else into written music.
Left-brained people are weird. 
I think you'll find that from 1962 onwards George Martin had a lot to do with the 'genius' of Paul McCartney
Quote: Dolly Dagger @ February 5 2009, 5:37 PM GMTAnyway, I just wonder if you get less enjoyment from music if you're dissecting it in such a way instead of having a raw emotional response.
No I don't think so. Musicians would probably just stop if it did because what they were doing would be meaningless. Even if you know theory inside out it doesn't stop you in any way from feeling what you are playing/writing/listening to. It's not like composing by numbers if you know theory - it's still based entirely on your emotional response - just you have a better idea of where you're going and what you could try.
I have a theory on how music works actually, while we're on the subject.
Listen to the sound of a person crying or grieving, and then, say, to a person laughing.
Try to translate those sounds into musical notes and you get pretty much the same emotional response. Ya get meh?
Quote: Moonstone @ February 5 2009, 5:47 PM GMTI have a theory on how music works actually, while we're on the subject.
Listen to the sound of a person crying or grieving, and then, say, to a person laughing.
Try to translate those sounds into musical notes and you get pretty much the same emotional response. Ya get meh?
Having considerd this theory for quite some seconds I've come to the conclusion you're nuts.
Quote: roscoff @ February 5 2009, 5:48 PM GMTHaving considerd this theory for quite some seconds I've come to the conclusion you're nuts.
No. I am right.
Quote: Griff @ February 5 2009, 5:46 PM GMTDrummers have their own expertise and language the same as any other professional and to dismissively suggest "Oh they just sit there and hit stuff until the music stops" is kind of naive and insulting in equal measure.
That wasn't what I was trying to say. My uncle earned a living as a drummer btw. It just seems that the people I know who are musically gifted (including a gospel singer) just have an instinctive feel for it and where it should go, without having loads of technical knowledge. I know some one who was a very good ballet dancer but put them in a nightclub and they couldn't dance even if their feet were on fire. I've seen toddlers pick out a beat without being told whether it was 4/4 or not.
Quote: Griff @ February 5 2009, 6:12 PM GMTBut suggesting, as you have done, that understanding how music works is a bad thing, is ridiculous. And you've made me cross and sad.
Oh dear 
! Cheer up!
Why be bothered by what I think? I'm mentally ill.
Sometimes though don't you think that knowing too much about comedy and joke construction has taken a bit (even a tiny bit) of the joy away from it? I find that, especially when watching stand-ups, I'm always second guessing the next line.
Btw do tribal communities that include music as a huge part of their cultures have some sort of technical knowledge and tradition?
Quote: Griff @ February 5 2009, 6:35 PM GMTAlso, world music is rubbish.
Now you're talking sense...
Now Dolly and Griff are definitely invited to my next Barbeque!
Griff, you seen this?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zddh5Vp-ApI
Howard Goodall's hour long thing on the Beatles. Lovely stuff. Basically reiterates what you're saying.
Goodall manages to describe complicated things with such eloquence.
Btw do tribal communities that include music as a huge part of their cultures have some sort of technical knowledge and tradition?
Tech yes and traditions yes.
My flute made by my brother, You can see the tech he needs to carve bear. The bear slides a little for tone.
Here you can see the holes. Flutes have been made as this for thousands of years. It takes great tech skills to place holes just right.
Quote: Griff @ February 5 2009, 10:34 PM GMTI like Howard Goodall, he used to do some great radio shows about music. I haven't seen that Beatles one, I'll enjoy watching that.
Ahh, you haven't seen it, great. It's really interesting.
As someone who's learning to play the piano and has been for 3 years (from nothing, no musical knowledge) it's really helpful to hear about tricks and tips.
(There are 6 parts on YouTube that make up the hour-ish)
