Quote: zooo @ December 15 2008, 7:01 PM GMTWell, as I've said before. You can borrow Aaron.
Ha! Yeah, if I got there first I remember 
After you've pegged it... Page 14
Oh noes!
Quote: Dolly Dagger @ December 15 2008, 6:56 PM GMTI don't agree. You can be very happy from being selfless. Ask any mother.
He didn't say that you couldn't.
Quote: Aaron @ December 15 2008, 7:06 PM GMTThat religion promotes being nice. It didn't invent it. It's not the only teacher of such common-good principles. But ultimately that's what it comes down to. All of the God, Jesus, whateverelseinyourreligionofchoice is a vehicle to carry the message.
Ohh, yeah I see.
Of course religions promote a hell of a lot of nastiness too, but I see your point.
Quote: PhQnix @ December 15 2008, 7:04 PM GMTI get this. You are helping people to make yourself feel good, or 'cos you'd feel worse if you didn't help them. I'm not sure if this is true or not, the important thing is that it's not morally wrong to help someone out of such selfishness.
Yup.
Quote: PhQnix @ December 15 2008, 7:04 PM GMTI get this. You are helping people to make yourself feel good, or 'cos you'd feel worse if you didn't help them. I'm not sure if this is true or not, the important thing is that it's not morally wrong to help someone out of such selfishness.
Precisely!
And no it's not morally wrong, that's what I keep trying to say. Selfishness can be bad but it is also responsible for all the good things we do. I would even go so far as to say I think it is essential to us.
Quote: Moonstone @ December 15 2008, 7:10 PM GMTI would even go so far as to say I think it is essential to us.
Of course it is.
Quote: zooo @ December 15 2008, 7:09 PM GMTOhh, yeah I see.
Of course religions promote a hell of a lot of nastiness too, but I see your point.
I'd argue that it's mostly individual perception of religion that promotes 'nastiness', as you put it.
Quote: Moonstone @ December 15 2008, 7:07 PM GMTHa! Yeah, if I got there first I remember
?
Quote: Aaron @ December 15 2008, 7:00 PM GMTYou'll find someone. If I can, so will you.
I do hope so. I'm certainly not against the idea, I just don't have any confidence in it.
Quote: Aaron @ December 15 2008, 7:14 PM GMTI'd argue that it's mostly individual perception of religion that promotes 'nastiness', as you put it.
Exactly. My religious friend used to say if someone drives mindlessly and kills someone, noone blames the car.
Quote: Aaron @ December 15 2008, 7:14 PM GMT?
Honestly, your memory is sooooo poor
Quote: Aaron @ December 15 2008, 7:14 PM GMTI'd argue that it's mostly individual perception of religion that promotes 'nastiness', as you put it.
You may be right. (but not entirely.)
Although you did say 'mostly', so yeah.
Of course neither of us can discuss this properly without having read the bible and all the equivalents in each religion, which I certainly haven't done!
Quote: Moonstone @ December 15 2008, 7:18 PM GMTHonestly, your memory is sooooo poor
Yes it is.
You're not having a go on my girlfriend though. 
I think he'd prefer a go on you, if he's honest with himself... 
Quote: Loopey @ December 15 2008, 6:06 PM GMTUntil this is ever proven, it is only opinion, which means none of us are right or wrong and therefore shouldn't think everyone else should share our opinion.
Agreed. Loops, you know I was only asking questions out loud. I think no one should think what I think because I don't know what I think yet ... er ... I think. Not that anyone pays a blind bit to me yammering, anyways.
Quote: Moonstone @ December 15 2008, 1:57 AM GMTI'm not a depressive or anything... but I am convinced life is hard for most of us.
I'd agree. No matter how comfortable I am now, I know it's temporary and "normal service" will be resumed.
Quote: Curt @ December 15 2008, 9:36 AM GMTI dropped the Philosophical garbage and read science books. I quickly realized that he definitely didn't exist and thus there was no afterlife.
Oddly my experience has been the opposite. I love science, I love organising data. But the more I study science, the more it makes me question the nature of reality and whether we can truly base our sum knowledge on our senses. While science (rightly so) decries closed minds wherever they occur in the religious viewpoint, it ignores its own amazing blindness in declaring that our 5 senses can, and do, define everything that is 'knowable' within the cosmos and beyond. Personally, I don't see full stops and neat tie-ups in Science but ever more loose ends that create ever more unsettling questions for me. In contrast, the more I learn, the more I'm questioning and redefining my belief system.
For me, to believe in something without proof is the same as choosing to not believe in something without proof. Whenever we accept or reject an idea (in the absence of real proof), we exert blind faith. It's just that if you exert blind faith in the scientific explanation it carries more credence and authority than if you choose a non-scientific alternative.
Quote: Lee Henman @ December 15 2008, 2:10 PM GMTDo God and an afterlife have to be mutually exclusive?
Good point, imo.
Quote: Dolly Dagger @ December 15 2008, 4:16 PM GMTIf there isn't more than I think it reduces us down to no more than animals and there is so much more to a person than just the physical. Saying that we just cease to exist also, in my opinion, makes a mockery of the things that makes us 'civilised' and different from the animals - namely love.
Now you summarised better a point I was trying to express. Why do these oddities exist within the human 'animal' when they make no sense in a totally material world?
No God, no afterlife, no nuthink. Depressing? Meh.
Quote: SlagA @ December 15 2008, 7:38 PM GMTNow you summarised better a point I was trying to express. Why do these oddities exist within the human 'animal' when they make no sense in a totally material world?
Sorry I can't help. I'm too tired to think.
Quote: Dolly Dagger @ December 15 2008, 7:42 PM GMTSorry I can't help. I'm too tired to think.
It's something I've been mulling on for a few months. If you knew the answer you could've saved me so much time. 