Quote: Lazzard @ 27th May 2022, 9:47 AMThe best analogy of Brexit I ever read was this:
"It's like seeing your local library burnt down by people who don't read books."
No, this was done by the Catholic Inquisition, you know, one the early forerunners of the EU.
Quote: Alfred J Kipper @ 28th May 2022, 9:58 AMNo, this was done by the Catholic Inquisition, you know, one the early forerunners of the EU.
Very good.
Innacurate, but very good.
Quote: Lazzard @ 28th May 2022, 10:00 AMVery good.
Innacurate, but very good.
You'll all do what we say even though you didn't vote for us? Sounds pretty close to me 
Quote: Lazzard @ 28th May 2022, 9:58 AM1) How exactly was the EU slowly but surely strangling us?
With the unlimited influx of low and unskilled workers, measured by the claim for UK residency under the Brexit agreement to be a minimum of six million people, that's not counting the estimated minimum of 2 1/2 million who left because of Lockdown restrictions on their income here and/or not feeling welcomed because of the Brexit vote. Almost every job outside the professions saw wages stagnate for 15 years and many workers' rates were actually cut such as those for electricians, as the labour market was overflowing with cheap labour from predominantly southern and eastern Europe.
As was successfully stated in the vote Brexit campaign, how on earth could British workers and their families with once decent incomes with mortgages and bills to pay now compete with a rented house stuffed with ten plus Romanians who split the rent between them, and need half the wages it cost the same employers to pay their own countrymen/women? If your income and contracts and working conditions weren't affected, that's great, mine was and millions of Brits were, because of the simple economic consequences of an overflowing labour market that also saw a severe shortage of housing and the prospects of young people ever owning their own home outright reduced to almost zero. If you think this hardship didn't really happen to millions of British people then how did Brexit get voted for?
Quote: Stephen Goodlad @ 28th May 2022, 7:43 AMBuffoon....don't get ya dander up old boy.
I hope you show us the receipt in October of where you donated your £400 to.
You really wouldn't want to benefit from a government trying to ease the crisis would you.
Doesn't every £400 get donated straight back to the energy companies...
Quote: Lazzard @ 28th May 2022, 10:00 AMVery good.
Innacurate, but very good.
Thank you, most kind. Yes I acknowledge non membership has lost us freedom of settlement, but it was mostly one way traffic to an already over populated island. All the other projects and percs such as student exchange and science and research projects which have been scuttled I'd say were more down to a vengeful EU as is the deliberate slowing down of imports and exports and trade in general. Any cartel will try to impede the progress of their 2nd most lucrative provider if they leave to become a competitor.
Quote: Alfred J Kipper @ 28th May 2022, 10:37 AMWith the unlimited influx of low and unskilled workers, measured by the claim for UK residency under the Brexit agreement to be a minimum of six million people, that's not counting the estimated minimum of 2 1/2 million who left because of Lockdown restrictions on their income here and/or not feeling welcomed because of the Brexit vote. Almost every job outside the professions saw wages stagnate for 15 years and many workers' rates were actually cut such as those for electricians, as the labour market was overflowing with cheap labour from predominantly southern and eastern Europe.
As was successfully stated in the vote Brexit campaign, how on earth could British workers and their families with once decent incomes with mortgages and bills to pay now compete with a rented house stuffed with ten plus Romanians who split the rent between them, and need half the wages it cost the same employers to pay their own countrymen/women? If your income and contracts and working conditions weren't affected, that's great, mine was and millions of Brits were, because of the simple economic consequences of an overflowing labour market that also saw a severe shortage of housing and the prospects of young people ever owning their own home outright reduced to almost zero. If you think this hardship didn't really happen to millions of British people then how did Brexit get voted for?
Theres very little empirical evidence - apart from the front pages of certain newspapers - that this is true.
It may be how you felt - it was certainly how you were encouraged to feel.
And without a counter-argument, it's easy to see how it would take hold.
There was a slight (1%) dampening in wages of low-skilled jobs (catering, farm-work etc) - but no loss of jobs - employers were desperately short of people.
Higher paid jobs saw a slight increase in salary.
At the time of the referendum, the average European working in the UK wasn't an Eastern European electrician - but far more likely to be a young, single French or Spanish graduate working in the financial, technology or media industries.
Social Housing wasn't affected - all that jumping the queue nonsense. The vast majority (over 90%) were in the private rented sector.
Lack of house-building, and people using property as investment rather than place to live, is what has caused a housing shortage.
We need to build more. I wonder where we can get some extra builders?
Lots of people were having a shit time as a result of the Banking Crisis and austerity.
Better to blame the EU rather than admit the actual causes.
Sorry you didn't like the picture.
It's by well known artist/satirist 'Cold War Steve' (not his real name).
Here's some more of his stuff - www.coldwarsteve.com .
I'm sure you'll hate it, but it's clever, if somewhat dark stuff.
A 21st Century Hogarth, if you will.
Whether it proves I'm a wally, I don't know - but he's all the rage with the Kids.
Ah, so sorry, he is so famous I had never heard of him. And looking at the rest of his pictures, I'm not surprised, they look exactly like badly photo-shopped photos and YOU did say it was a photo. All it needed really was for you to have included that link in the earlier posting. https://www.coldwarsteve.com/2022/02/18/johnsons-party-seven-limited-editions/
If I wanted Ursula Von Der Leyen to resign, you're right, there's absolutely nothing I could do about it.
We're no longer in the EU so we don't get a vote, remember.
If, on the other hand, the EU Parliament who voted her in want to get rid of her for misconduct, there is provision for a vote of censure.
This was about to happen in 1999 - but the President did the decent thing and resigned.
Perhaps he should have re-written the rules, just like Boris did yesterday.
There was of course an obvious implied assumption in that part of the posting that you want to be ruled by the EU i.e that Brexit had not happened.
So try again, instead of avoiding the question:
If you think it's difficult getting Boris to resign (persuade 54 Tories) just imagine what would happen if the UK had stayed in the EU and you wanted Ursula von der Leyen to resign (persuade 26 Governments).
"Ah, so sorry, he is so famous I had never heard of him."
Not sure you not having heard of him is any sort of measure of his fame, to be fair.
"And looking at the rest of his pictures, I'm not surprised, they look exactly like badly photo-shopped photos."
They're photo-montages. That's what he does. Not sure what software he uses. It's not exactly revolutionary.
This is from 1956...
"And YOU did say it was a photo."
As a joke. I hadn't considered anyone would think it wad a genuine photograph, photo-shopped or otherwise
As to your repetition in bold of the question, well, I personally can't get Boris to resign, just like I couldn't, personally, get her to resign.
That has always been up to the European Parliament., who as I said, have a process of a vote of censure.
When we had a voice in Europe we - and by extension, I, via my elected MEP - could have been part of that process.
Not so with Boris, as that is entirely down to the Tory Party who, for obvious reasons, I have no influence over.
Quote: Lazzard @ 28th May 2022, 12:50 PMSocial Housing wasn't affected - all that jumping the queue nonsense. The vast majority (over 90%) were in the private rented sector.
Yes, which pushed up the cost of renting to unmanageable levels for medium and small sized families, as greedy landlords were able to charge much more for a household of ten, knowing the costs would be split. Those not qualifying for social housing had their increased private rent heavily subsidised by the council through housing benefit which shot through the roof, costing the council tax payer in reduced services everywhere else, including new social housing, which certainly was affected.
Quote: Alfred J Kipper @ 28th May 2022, 11:11 AMAny cartel will try to impede the progress of their 2nd most lucrative provider if they leave to become a competitor.
Don't remember that particular slogan during the referendum.
"We'll hold the cards", "There is no downside to Brexit" and "£350 Million to the NHS" are the ones that come to mind.
It was a con.
I'm pleased for you that got the result you wanted, but let's not pretend it wasn't.
Quote: Alfred J Kipper @ 28th May 2022, 2:52 PMYes, which pushed up the cost of renting to unmanageable levels for medium and small sized families, as greedy landlords were able to charge much more for a household of ten, knowing the costs would be split. Those not qualifying for social housing had their increased private rent heavily subsidised by the council through housing benefit which shot through the roof, costing the council tax payer in reduced services everywhere else, including new social housing, which certainly was affected.
"...a severe shortage of housing and the prospects of young people ever owning their own home outright reduced to almost zero."
That was the point I was answering. If your going to change your tune half-way through, there's not much I can do about that.
Quote: Lazzard @ 28th May 2022, 12:50 PMTheres very little empirical evidence - apart from the front pages of certain newspapers - that this is true.
There is ample evidence and economic studies to support this, but it has been disputed, complicated and even nullified using the arguments you put forward such as the 2008 world banking crash, the consequences of Brexit and Covid and now a European war. If the doubters were to ask tradesmen, lorry drivers and factory workers instead of accountants, bankers and middle managers, they'd find the empirical evidence in abundance. They don't want to go there.
Lorry drivers might have a different opinion now.
Along with all those fishermen who were sold down the river/sea.
But you're right -that evidence doesn't exist and is entirely anecdotal - so this conversation has to, perforce, come to a screeching halt.
Neither of us will convince the other.
Though the ever-elusive list of Brexit Benefits might go some way to changing hearts and minds.
Quote: Lazzard @ 28th May 2022, 2:52 PM"...a severe shortage of housing and the prospects of young people ever owning their own home outright reduced to almost zero."
That was the point I was answering. If your going to change your tune half-way through, there's not much I can do about that.
? Not changed it one bit, just explaining why the increased costs of private renting severely restricts the chances of young people to afford deposits and qualify for mortgages when property prices have also risen beyond affordability with wages stagnating and inflation flying. It's already clear that most buyers who bought only shares in new homes will not ever get to own the whole home.
Quote: Alfred J Kipper @ 28th May 2022, 3:16 PM? Not changed it one bit, just explaining why the increased costs of private renting severely restricts the chances of young people to afford deposits and qualify for mortgages when property prices have also risen beyond affordability with wages stagnating and inflation flying. It's already clear that most buyers who bought only shares in new homes do not ever get to own the whole home.
Fair enough - that wasn't how it came across.
I still maintain - as do many pieces of research - immigration from the EU was not a major factor - it may have added somewhat to the problem, but the problem was longer in the making,
Beginning of course with the selling off of council houses - but that's another story.
And I'm far too exhausted to get into that.
It's lovely and sunny outside.