I read the news today oh boy! Page 2,400

Quote: Stephen Goodlad @ 17th May 2022, 7:56 AM

I've not read much on here about how a spotty youth can get hold of an assault weapon and as much ammo as he can carry to commit this crime.
But I have read a lot in the media about Americans wanting 'concealed carry' laws to be for everyone.
They seem to think it's an equilibrium if everyone has a gun.

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If he bought it legally, he went through an FBI background check.

The right to own/carry a firearm to protect oneself against the millions of guns in the hands of criminals is an important one.

Quote: Lazzard @ 17th May 2022, 9:06 AM

And they're proved wrong on a near weekly basis. https://www.gunviolencearchive.org

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I'm hesitant to believe anything published on anti-gun websites as they often play fast and loose with facts and figures, but according to their statistics there are more than twice as many instances of defensive use of a firearm than there are mass shootings (itself a very loosely defined term).

Defensive use of a firearm occurs thousands of times every day, although they seldom make the news unless someone is actually shot. Here are two such cases from the last two weeks here in my city:

https://news4sanantonio.com/news/local/homeowner-shoots-kills-intruder-caught-breaking-into-her-home

https://news4sanantonio.com/news/local/homeowner-shoots-man-accused-of-breaking-into-her-house

Quote: Teddy Paddalack @ 17th May 2022, 9:42 AM

They are operating off a Constitution that was written when people lived in log cabins the middle of nowhere and there was potentially an Indian or a outlaw behind every bush. All they had to do was state that the right to bare arms was only in places where law and order was yet to be established.

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The Supreme Court has ruled that the Second Amendment still allows Americans the right to possess firearms for self-defense. It is neither outdated nor unnecessary.

Quote: Stephen Goodlad @ 17th May 2022, 10:13 AM

Yeah, and when it was muskets that took 5 minutes to load - not 20 rounds per second.

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See above regarding the Supreme Court.

In case you weren't aware because of the media's poor/biased reporting, machine guns have essentially been illegal for more than 50 years. Americans' guns are semi-auto and only fire one round per trigger pull. I've loaded a musket in a lot less time than five minutes, for what it's worth.

Agreeing with the findings of the Supreme Court is not absolute though is it?. Their rulings are cherry picked by both sides in many arguments.
As such it would be fair to say that they are an extension of the political parties given how they are selected. A right or left leaning bench can and often does outlive the administration that appointed it?.So you can have a democratically elected government of one persuasion that has to operate inside laws set by another.
Roe v Wade being a prime example. You have a section of people who will fight tooth and nail to save a foetus. But will then also take up arms if once born that baby is given access to free medication?

"If he bought it legally, he went through an FBI background check."

The FBI might want to review their policy, then.

When it comes to guns - things can be augmented - bump stocks, extra-large clips etc
And even in its standard, straight off the shelf at Walmart form, it's perfectly capable ok killing someone every second.

This discussion always goes round in circles.

'I need to protect myself
The 2nd amendment blah blah.
I have a suspicion that if it's not your family mown down, guns are still ok.
Yet over 30000 families will have their loved ones killed by bullets every year forever.

I get why millions of Americans think they're the sensible ones who need guns to protect against all the other crazy gun owners, but couldn't the government just allow civilians to just get rubber bullets ? Then we could read about high school mass bruising instead.

I don't think that's as silly as it sounds. I've read somewhere that the strict control of ammo is being mooted as a serious option to curb killings. Something like full live rounds only available to gun clubs and registered sports/hunting users and weak nonlethal rounds for any other non specified purchase. The control of guns is now impossible, the country is swamped with them, but the supply of bullets is the key. All they need is the will to implement it, that's the big stumbling block as ever in freedom loving America. Morning.

Also every licenced gun new and old could have a gps tracker chip inserted, linked to a nationwide programme, so if that gun's where it's not supposed to be, schools, shopping centres, pubs and clubs etc. the local police get alerted and turn up, hopefully before anyone's killed.

Quote: Alfred J Kipper @ 18th May 2022, 8:17 AM

I don't think that's as silly as it sounds. I've read somewhere that the strict control of ammo is being mooted as a serious option to curb killings. Something like full live rounds only available to gun clubs and registered sports/hunting users and weak nonlethal rounds for any other non specified purchase. The control of guns is now impossible, the country is swamped with them, but the supply of bullets is the key. All they need is the will to implement it, that's the big stumbling block as ever in freedom loving America. Morning.

Also every licenced gun new and old could have a gps tracker chip inserted, linked to a nationwide programme, so if that gun's where it's not supposed to be, schools, shopping centres, pubs and clubs etc. the local police get alerted and turn up, hopefully before anyone's killed.

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Yes and elvis Presley will be the next POTUS

Quote: Lazzard @ 17th May 2022, 5:34 PM

The FBI might want to review their policy, then.

When it comes to guns - things can be augmented - bump stocks, extra-large clips etc
And even in its standard, straight off the shelf at Walmart form, it's perfectly capable ok killing someone every second.

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A background check is a background check. No negative findings means you are able to purchase a firearm. Failure to report derogatory information lies with local law enforcement, not the FBI. They just maintain the database.

Bump stocks have been illegal since 2018, although you can get the same effect using something as simple as your beltloop. Large capacity is a somewhat tenuous description, as standard AR15 magazines hold 30 rounds and many pistols ship with 16+ magazines. Trying to use goofy aftermarket drum magazines and the like typically leads to jamming.

Quote: Stephen Goodlad @ 17th May 2022, 6:37 PM

'I need to protect myself
The 2nd amendment blah blah.
I have a suspicion that if it's not your family mown down, guns are still ok.
Yet over 30000 families will have their loved ones killed by bullets every year forever.

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The right to self-protection might be the most fundamental of all human rights. I've had a family member shot at (he wasn't hit, but returned fire and killed the shooter) but I'm still in favor of Americans' right to possess a firearm if they are legally qualified to do so.

Quote: Alfred J Kipper @ 18th May 2022, 8:17 AM

I've read somewhere that the strict control of ammo is being mooted as a serious option to curb killings. Something like full live rounds only available to gun clubs and registered sports/hunting users and weak nonlethal rounds for any other non specified purchase. The control of guns is now impossible, the country is swamped with them, but the supply of bullets is the key. All they need is the will to implement it, that's the big stumbling block as ever in freedom loving America.

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Ammo control has never been mooted as a serious option to curb killings. It's just a fantasy dreamed up by Internet keyboard warriors and rabid anti-gun activists.

There are hundreds of millions of guns in the country, but there are untold hundreds of billions of rounds of ammunition already in circulation, with billions more produced every year. Ammunition has been scarce for years due to hoarding, and the average legal gun owner has a few thousand rounds in their safe, but they're always looking for more.

As with most gun control proposals, limiting ammo would only hurt the law-abiding gun owners. Those are the people who expend hundreds of rounds practicing at the range or hunting, but your average criminal will probably only fire a magazine or two during their entire "career". You could add a $10 per round tax to ammunition sales and it would only cost a determined mass shooter a few hundred dollars to kill a bunch of people.

Quote: Alfred J Kipper @ 18th May 2022, 8:17 AM

Also every licenced gun new and old could have a gps tracker chip inserted, linked to a nationwide programme, so if that gun's where it's not supposed to be, schools, shopping centres, pubs and clubs etc. the local police get alerted and turn up, hopefully before anyone's killed.

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Guns are legally allowed in many of the venues you mentioned. You could also rest assured that anyone intent on committing a crime would remove the battery or the tracker itself beforehand. A simple metal detector at the entrance would be a much better solution.

I'm just glad I don't have to live with a gun for protection.
The UK is the land of the free, not the USA

Quote: Stephen Goodlad @ 18th May 2022, 3:50 PM

I'm just glad I don't have to live with a gun for protection.
The UK is the land of the free, not the USA

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I don't have to live with a gun for protection, but I'm allowed to do so if I so choose. Seems like a bit more freedom here than there, since you aren't afforded the same right.

Quote: DaButt @ 18th May 2022, 4:14 PM

Seems like a bit more freedom here than there, since you aren't afforded the same right.

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We feel the same way about abortion.

Quote: Lazzard @ 18th May 2022, 6:17 PM

We feel the same way about abortion.

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Abortion is legal here, too. Although I scratch my head at the logical disconnection between supporting the deaths of children while wringing hands over the use of firearms in self-defense.

Quote: DaButt @ 18th May 2022, 6:24 PM

Abortion is legal here, too. Although I scratch my head at the logical disconnection between supporting the deaths of children while wringing hands over the use of firearms in self-defense.

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Not if Roe v Wade is overturned - which appears to be on the cards.
And it's deaths of foetuses - part of a woman's body over which she has a right.
More than happy to weigh the balance between an unborn foetus and a living breathing human being. The human being wins, every time.
And, anyway, we're not talking about self-defence, we're talking about mass-murder by lunatics with easy access to guns, in a gun obsessed culture.
You 'need' a gun because everyone's got a f**king gun.
There is an obvious solution, but the Gun Lobby won't allow it - and donate handsomely to make sure they never have to.

Quote: Lazzard @ 18th May 2022, 6:37 PM

More than happy to weigh the balance between an unborn foetus and a living breathing human being. The human being wins, every time.

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So it's not a human being - nor alive - before it takes a breath? That's a fairly radical viewpoint.

Abortion appears to be legal in the UK up to 24 weeks. Some U.S. states cut it off before that, and others after. Babies have survived birth at 21 weeks, so that means that the UK and some states allow the dismemberment of living (and capable of) breathing human beings. That's hard to come to terms with.

Quote: Lazzard @ 18th May 2022, 6:37 PM

And, anyway, we're not talking about self-defence, we're talking about mass-murder by lunatics with easy access to guns, in a gun obsessed culture.

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I had been talking about self-defense, and I take issue with the characterization of "gun-obsessed". We're very protective of individual rights, states' rights, and Constitutional rights.

Quote: Lazzard @ 18th May 2022, 6:37 PM

You 'need' a gun because everyone's got a f**king gun.

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I don't need a gun, I want a gun because I enjoy shooting them. I also like to be self-reliant when it comes to my personal protection, as I am not afforded 24/7 armed bodyguards like the people who make gun policy.

Quote: Lazzard @ 18th May 2022, 6:37 PM

There is an obvious solution, but the Gun Lobby won't allow it - and donate handsomely to make sure they never have to.

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There is only one solution to our gun crime problem: long prison terms for anyone carrying and/or using guns illegally. Disarming/criminalizing the 99% of gun owners who follow the laws will never be the answer.

So massacres are just an acceptable bi-product of gun ownership.
We'll just ignore the massive number killed by them every year cos I like guns.
That appears to be your logic.