Quote: Seefacts @ March 17, 2008, 4:48 PMOr you could just read some scripts, watch a bit of comedy and stop wasting your time reading about it when you should be sitting down and writing.
How many 'How to write songs' book did Paul McCartney read? How many 'How to play football' books did Wayne Rooney read? (How many books full stop, in his case).
I see no point in reading books by people who have written bugger all for the telly. I can get just as good advice on these very forums.
Wrong.
Writing Comedy by John Byrne.
Quote: Perry Nium @ March 18, 2008, 2:07 AMWrong.
I was tired last night and so fired that one-word response before going to bed. Naughty of me. What I meant to say was it is NEVER a waste of time reading up on writing techniques, in exactly the same way it's never a waste of time reading up on any skill you want to get better at.
Wayne Rooney may not have read many football books, but he was certainly taught how to better his game when he signed for Everton as a child. He'd never have ended up as the star he is today without proper coaching, which is exactly what reading instructional books is. Coaching. The trick is to pick the right coach. To be fair, most of the books out there on creative writing have useful stuff in them, so I would definitely say read as much as you can and listen to what other people have to say. And if those people are people that actually make tv programmes for a living, then listen to them even closer.
Quote: Nigel Kelly @ March 18, 2008, 9:28 AMWriting Comedy by John Byrne.
Love that book!
For specifically sitcom-writing, a UK book is John Byrne and Michael Powell's 'Writing Sitcoms' and a massive US one is Evan Smith's 'Writing Television Sitcoms'.
Quote: Perry Nium @ March 18, 2008, 10:42 AMI was tired last night and so fired that one-word response before going to bed. Naughty of me. What I meant to say was it is NEVER a waste of time reading up on writing techniques, in exactly the same way it's never a waste of time reading up on any skill you want to get better at.
Wayne Rooney may not have read many football books, but he was certainly taught how to better his game when he signed for Everton as a child. He'd never have ended up as the star he is today without proper coaching, which is exactly what reading instructional books is. Coaching. The trick is to pick the right coach. To be fair, most of the books out there on creative writing have useful stuff in them, so I would definitely say read as much as you can and listen to what other people have to say. And if those people are people that actually make tv programmes for a living, then listen to them even closer.
For me, the only 'research' I've ever done in terms of writing is watching comedy, reading scripts, and reading/listening to interviews with comedy writers. To me, that's all you need.
I think if you had two young people both starting out as comedy writers and one spent 2 years reading, and one spent 2 years writing, I know who'd be the better honed writer. As the Nike slogan says 'Just do it'.
Writing courses are a waste of time as well, in my view.
However with the split down the middle this thread creates, you'll just have to do what you feel is best for your development.
I find it funny that Wayne Rooney got a mention earlier on because if anything, he is the archetypal playground footballer, the kid who emulated what he saw at the weekend and did it on playing fields on the Monday morning.
Sure Everton may have developed his skills in the basics, like 'don't let your man get goal side of you when you're back defending a corner', but by watching lots of football and putting in the hours of practice on the mean streets of Croxteth, he learnt bits of his game that he couldn't be coached, making him stand out among the rest.
I'm not saying that there isn't a place for books and courses and the like - I was invited to a BBC Workshop on the back of some sketches I sent and I found it quite enlightening; I didn't take on board every single piece of advice and follow it religiously to this day, but I did pick up some useful techniques, particularly when it now comes to writing a certain type of sketch.
However, I still feel I made the biggest transition as a comedy writer when I started to write more often and watched and listened to more and more comedy than before.
Quote: Splodge @ March 18, 2008, 12:55 PMI find it funny that Wayne Rooney got a mention earlier on because if anything, he is the archetypal playground footballer, the kid who emulated what he saw at the weekend and did it on playing fields on the Monday morning.
Sure Everton may have developed his skills in the basics, like 'don't let your man get goal side of you when you're back defending a corner', but by watching lots of football and putting in the hours of practice on the mean streets of Croxteth, he learnt bits of his game that he couldn't be coached, making him stand out among the rest.
I'm not saying that there isn't a place for books and courses and the like - I was invited to a BBC Workshop on the back of some sketches I sent and I found it quite enlightening; I didn't take on board every single piece of advice and follow it religiously to this day, but I did pick up some useful techniques, particularly when it now comes to writing a certain type of sketch.
However, I still feel I made the biggest transition as a comedy writer when I started to write more often and watched and listened to more and more comedy than before.
Yeah, I agree with that.
I think the whole point is to spend the most time writing but there is nothing wrong with reading help books if you want. They can be helpful (plenty of proof here and in the industry) and shouldn't be completely dismissed as has been the case here.
No one is saying do one or the other either. Having read plenty of interviews and a few books there isn't a lot of difference in the advice given so its pretty much the same.
you're right about wayne rooney emulating what he learnt from other's, however he is naturally talented anyway, therefore it was easy for him. However not everyone is naturally gifted at everything, and IMO if you have an interest in something and want to improve then you have to immerse yourself in all aspects of that interest, be it books, classes, "doing it", etc. to say that reading books on a subject is a waste of time is slightly narrow minded.
Quote: wayne lewis @ March 18, 2008, 8:18 PMyou're right about wayne rooney emulating what he learnt from other's, however he is naturally talented anyway, therefore it was easy for him. However not everyone is naturally gifted at everything, and IMO if you have an interest in something and want to improve then you have to immerse yourself in all aspects of that interest, be it books, classes, "doing it", etc. to say that reading books on a subject is a waste of time is slightly narrow minded.
But without natural talent then you'll get nowhere.
People think that these books are a substitute - they're not.
that's true. but sometimes people just need a place to start. they've watched the sitcoms, read the scripts but then what? people know something is funny, but not necessarily why, or how to emulate what they see on the screen. i think only after you've learnt a bit about "how" to do it, and then actually doing will you find out whether you have any talent or not. i just thought it would be nice to give some newbies a place to start.
Quote: wayne lewis @ March 18, 2008, 8:31 PMthat's true. but sometimes people just need a place to start. they've watched the sitcoms, read the scripts but then what? people know something is funny, but not necessarily why, or how to emulate what they see on the screen. i think only after you've learnt a bit about "how" to do it, and then actually doing will you find out whether you have any talent or not. i just thought it would be nice to give some newbies a place to start.
I think just watching comedy and analysing why YOU find it funny is enough.
but how do you know how to emulate what you see?
Quote: wayne lewis @ March 18, 2008, 8:52 PMbut how do you know how to emulate what you see?
Surely you just copy it don't you?
Peter Gabriel (about starting out in music) said what people do is copy their idols, before gradually get their own style.
But you need a talent in the first place. I often wonder why I can't write songs. I know what I like in terms of music, but I can't come up with hooks and riffs. why? Because I'm not musically talented or creative. I'm learning to play the piano, and I think I play in a frenetic (non-classical) emulating people who I like, but I'll never be able to write a song like Ben Folds. I could read books all I liked, but I'd never be able to write something like 'Landed'.
In terms of comedy - at first I emulated my idols - and copied the script layout I got from the Father Ted script book. Grant & Naylor, Linehan & Mathews, John Swartzwelder - I thought about what they did that I liked and did my own versions of it. Learning my craft, analysing how their programs worked. As I progressed, my own style appeared. I look at my work now and can see influences (the ones I mentioned are my main ones, depending on what I'm writing) but I also see a style that I haven't seen anywhere else, and that's my own.
I'm not saying EVERYONE should do it that way, but I think copying your idols is how to start off. When it comes to being creative, you almost can't go wrong. You can't learn to write a funny line.