I read the news today oh boy! Page 2,206

I accept democracy.
I would NOT argue that the last General Election or US presidential election were won unfairly and should be overturned, I didn't like the outcomes of either, but I accept them (the 2000 US election was a different matter! But much too late to change that now!)
This does not mean that we should not be able to criticise the elected governments of our time, of course. That's always been the way e.g. Boris Johnson is a weak, lazy and arrogant PM and Trump is a potentially dangerous narcissist.
It's also worth pointing out (as I frequently do) that although Trump seems to have won the 2016 election fairly, he won with three million fewer votes than his opponent, as this does raise issues over his legitimacy (he basically only won due to a flaw in the electoral system).
But generally speaking, we are al free to criticise our leaders as much as we want.

Quote: lofthouse @ 7th September 2020, 9:13 PM

Like I once said to you

Trump could kill all children under five in the US and burn their bodies on the White House lawn - and you'd still Vote for that prick

Must obey must obey must obey must obey

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If you honestly believe that, you should seek help.

Quote: Chris Hallam @ 7th September 2020, 9:42 PM

Your first sentence here is itself completely false.
The story WAS corroborated. It was reported by The Atlantic and corroborated by both Associated News and even by the famously conservative Fox News.

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I have no doubt that a couple of anonymous individuals claimed that they heard it with their own ears. I also have no doubt that they're strongly anti-Trump individuals who would gladly lie to a reporter in order to help sway the election. Numerous individuals - including anti-Trumpers - have come out and said that no such thing took place. Why aren't they believed? At least they're brave enough to allow their names to be printed.

Quote: Chris Hallam @ 7th September 2020, 9:42 PM

And clearly Texas where you live is a conservative Trump-supporting state.

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I was responding to the allegation that veterans - not Texans - would turn away from Trump.

Quote: Chris Hallam @ 7th September 2020, 9:42 PM

But the story sounds plausible and is consistent with Trump's personality and patterns of behaviour.

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In other words, it fits your viewpoint. You want to believe, so you believe.

Quote: lofthouse @ 7th September 2020, 10:24 PM

He looks like he could drop dead at literally any second

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Just about every complaint people have about Trump can be slapped on Joe Biden, too:

He's old (four years older than Trump, I believe) and possibly senile.

He's a racist.

He's a sex offender (his pick for Vice President said as much during her campaign).

He's a narcissist.

Etc.

Quote: Chappers @ 8th September 2020, 5:52 PM

I can see another American Civil War coming soon.

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Highly unlikely, although I wouldn't rule it out completely if there are shenanigans during the election. We let our cops handle our problems, but if they are removed from the streets "order" will be maintained by militias, gangs, organized crime and armed citizens.

Quote: Chris Hallam @ 9th September 2020, 6:14 AM

I accept democracy.
I would NOT argue that the last General Election or US presidential election were won unfairly and should be overturned, I didn't like the outcomes of either, but I accept them (the 2000 US election was a different matter! But much too late to change that now!)

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Why don't you accept the 2000 election results? The rest of us did.

Quote: Chris Hallam @ 9th September 2020, 6:14 AM

It's also worth pointing out (as I frequently do) that although Trump seems to have won the 2016 election fairly, he won with three million fewer votes than his opponent, as this does raise issues over his legitimacy (he basically only won due to a flaw in the electoral system).

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It's not a flaw, it is a deliberate measure enacted by the nation's founders to ensure that smaller states aren't ignored by candidates and have their say in national politics. It's served us well for 200+ years. Democrats tend to ignore the smaller states in the middle of the country, but every 4 years they have to at least pretend to care about them.

Quote: Chappers @ 8th September 2020, 5:52 PM

I can see another American Civil War coming soon.

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All those guns and itchy fingers in America, that would the mother of all shoot outs. There are people desperate for an excuse to get away with murder, but don't want to join the police. This is their chance.

Quote: Firkin @ 9th September 2020, 7:43 AM

There are people desperate for an excuse to get away with murder

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About 0.001% of the population, I'd reckon.

Quote: Stephen Goodlad @ 8th September 2020, 10:12 PM

It's more popular than unpopular.
And that's right.

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Tell that to the Germans.

Quote: DaButt @ 9th September 2020, 7:26 AM

If you honestly believe that, you should seek help.

I have no doubt that a couple of anonymous individuals claimed that they heard it with their own ears. I also have no doubt that they're strongly anti-Trump individuals who would gladly lie to a reporter in order to help sway the election. Numerous individuals - including anti-Trumpers - have come out and said that no such thing took place. Why aren't they believed? At least they're brave enough to allow their names to be printed.
.

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More accurately: the Secretary of State said he didn't hear him say it while his National Security Adviser says he doesn't believe he would have said it.
Five news sources have corroborated the story.
Trump also denied that he would ever disparage the military. In fact, he's on record as having disparaged the military in public many times.
Is it any wonder nobody believes him?

Quote: Lazzard @ 9th September 2020, 10:36 AM

Tell that to the Germans.

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Are you referring to the Nazi's? Really.

You do know that if you were a German and opposed them, you quietly disappeared.

Quote: Stephen Goodlad @ 9th September 2020, 11:21 AM

Are you referring to the Nazi's? Really.

You do know that if you were a German and opposed them, you quietly disappeared.

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They were voted in.

Sigh...

Quote: Lazzard @ 9th September 2020, 12:48 PM

They were voted in.

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Hitler lied to the electorate and used fear and Nationalism to get in. He then started up old manufacturing plants and increases employment. He got tough with his neighbours, encouraged prejudice and went hell for leather with propaganda and controlling the media ( 2 chapters of mein kampf are on propaganda). Exactly what Trump has done.

Quote: Stephen Goodlad @ 9th September 2020, 1:36 PM

Sigh...

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Why the sigh?
Of course the Nazis intimidated people in order to suppress the vote.
They created an atmosphere of fear (where have we heard that before)
On a high turnout, though, that didn't stop them getting 44% of the vote, enough with the support of similar thinking parties to gain a majority.

The nazis never went into a GE promising to deport and murder Jews and wage war on the entire planet

They only started doing that once their propaganda machine got them power

All true.

Its always a mistake using Nazis as examples.
And I don't think Tories are Nazis.
My point was - for which I chose a contentious example - was that to claim " if the majority want something it is de facto 'right'" is absurd.

If it's not right, there's the voting booth next time.
If it's never right then they never get in to prove its not right.

To intimate that everybody who voted against you are idiots is absurd.