Imagine what it's like to be a female stand-up about to go on stage when you know about half the audience (other women included) don't think women are funny.
Imagine what it's like being a black or Asian comedian going to do an act in a pub or club filled with racists.
You can see why a lot of women and people from ethinic minorities are put off getting into comedy (which is the way many get into comedy) through this route.
If you feel your sex or races stops you getting into comedy, you've failed before you've begun and you're small minded in your view... if you're not breaking in, it's because you're not good enough for people to notice you... simple as.
Quote: Dolly Dagger @ March 12, 2008, 11:08 AMImagine what it's like to be a female stand-up about to go on stage when you know about half the audience (other women included) don't think women are funny.
Yeah, I'd agree stand-ups might find it harder, I seem to recall some study which claimed 60% of men would find the same joke much more funny if told by a man then a woman, but that shouldn't happen the same on the page/script.
Quote: Paul W @ March 12, 2008, 11:12 AMIf you feel your sex or races stops you getting into comedy, you've failed before you've begun and you're small minded in your view... if you're not breaking in, it's because you're not good enough for people to notice you... simple as.
I think that's a bit unfair. I'm not saying it's impossible but I'm saying that it's much harder and takes a lot more guts and probably more talent. Knowing that about half the audience are thinking "women aren't funny. Go on then try and make me laugh" makes it harder. I do stand-up and I know I have this obstacle to face and have a harder time than the male comics. You also have the problem , as a woman, of facing sexist and/or threatening heckles.
Quote: Hennell @ March 12, 2008, 11:29 AMYeah, I'd agree stand-ups might find it harder, I seem to recall some study which claimed 60% of men would find the same joke much more funny if told by a man then a woman, but that shouldn't happen the same on the page/script.
I agree, but think that some readers are still prejudiced (consciously or not) by the name on the script. Of course you could use a male or unisex pseudonym. Also stand-up is the way many writers and performers get into the business.
I do believe I agree with Dolly.
I'd imagine stand up is hellish, horrific and almost impossible for anyone to do, but having anything 'different' about you is going to add another dimension of difficulty.
Quote: Griff @ March 12, 2008, 11:33 AMYeah but you can always tell. Women writers use pink pens, big loopy handwriting and use hearts to dot their i's etc.
So now I have to decide between L. H. G. - to bypass any tiresome middle aged men who don't bother reading women or foreign sounding writers, and Laura Gomez - to take full advantage of any positive discrimination possibilities.
Ah, decisions...
Quote: Seefacts @ March 11, 2008, 6:35 PMI think there's been a wealth of ethnic stuff over the last few years.
Little Miss Jocelyn
Three Non Blondes.
Goodness Gracious me a few years back.I'd go as far to say if you looked at all the creatives in comedy, the mix of men, women, black, white whatever would probably match the ethnic mix in the UK.
What concerns me is that may go down an 'actively seeking more ethnic or black comedy route' rather than making stuff that's funny.
I don't think, on the whole, comedy fans look at a show and go 'Oh, it's got someone Chinese in it, I will (or won't) watch that!'. People watch what is funny.
I really don't see how 3 shows in the past ten years is a sign of a "wealth". I know there have been more - but not many more than this. The current state of uk comedy has very little in the way of actual ethnic diversity. Why shouldn't they go through the actively seeking new experiences, backgrounds and ideas of people from a wide variety of backgrounds? That challenges the viewers in a variety of ways and aids comedy. Its hard to explain what is lacking in the UK scene - but American TV is much much better at representing other experiences. Its hard to see the humour of The Boondocks or the raw power of The Wire coming through in the current climate in the UK. Yeah there is tonnes of rubbish - ala Barbershop but the US model highlights benefits that can be derivied from diversity.
And people don't just watch what's funny. Most people would ignore a show full of Chinese people cos it will be "not for them" - which is why most "ethnic" shows have to have white cast members so Joe Public can relate.
It's hard for everyone to break into the media - but it's especially hard when the person looking at your from across the desk/reading your script, has very little access to the world you are coming from.
How many comedy shows have there been with no or peripheral only ethnic performers.
That TV is producing tv ghettos, is nothing to be proud of and backwards step.
The Crouches, black cast, white writer stand out, as an especially poor idea.
That said Peep Show seems to be an honourable exception.
When most of a sitcom or sketch show's leading characters are female and/or from an ethnic minority it is marked out as such. When they are male and white we just see it as 'normal'. I think that shows how comedy written by and about women and/or ethnic minorities are still a novelty. It's almost seen as 'speciality' or niche comedy, which is a shame.
Even female co-writers (such as Connie Booth and Jessica Stevenson-whatver-she's-called-these-days) are hugely over-shadowed by their male co-writers. In fact the female writers I can think of, with the exception of Julia Davis, have all had a male co-writer (shows like Pulling, The Royale Family and Gavin and Stacey).
I've heard so many people (usually men) say that women can't be or aren't funny (and they weren't just picking on my material 
). I can't be the only woman who's come across those sort of comments. I'm sure this sort of attitude puts women off entering comedy in the first place. It's certainly disheartening. I don't know whether this prejudice is present amongst the people with power in TV and radio. I hope not, but you can't help wondering.
It's more complex a sitcom with no female parts is weird (ok Young Ones, Red Dwarf, Bottom, Filthy Rich and Catflap, whats up with RIk and Ade are they scared of women).
But in terms of sketch shows your talking French and Saunders, Smack The Pony, and Titty Bang. Not all that many.
Quote: Splodge @ March 12, 2008, 11:05 AMI might be stating the obvious here, but presumably Lucy Lumsden already knows a bit about the writer of each script she reads?
As I understand it, she's unlikely to be reading a script without the writer(s) having been met a good few times by people further down the line, so yes.
Quote: Splodge @ March 12, 2008, 11:05 AMBecause if not, how would she be able to determine the ethnic background of the writer from just reading their script?
But if not, then yeah, tricky. But then if she's got one from "Michael Stevens" and one from "Gurvinder Patel" she could be forgiven for assuming that GP is an 'ethnic' writer.
Quote: zooo @ March 12, 2008, 11:42 AMSo now I have to decide between L. H. G. - to bypass any tiresome middle aged men who don't bother reading women or foreign sounding writers, and Laura Gomez - to take full advantage of any positive discrimination possibilities.
Ah, decisions...
Is the H for "Homo-loving"?
*strokes chin* Interesting thought though. I'd go for my full name. After all, if someone's enough of a twat to make that kind of decision just on a name, you probably don't want to be associated with them anyway.
But then you also want to make it on your own merits, and not wonder if you're the token ethnic!
Quote: Dolly Dagger @ March 12, 2008, 11:38 AMI think that's a bit unfair. I'm not saying it's impossible but I'm saying that it's much harder and takes a lot more guts and probably more talent. Knowing that about half the audience are thinking "women aren't funny. Go on then try and make me laugh" makes it harder. I do stand-up and I know I have this obstacle to face and have a harder time than the male comics. You also have the problem , as a woman, of facing sexist and/or threatening heckles.
I don't agree with you completely, I've worked with and seen black, female and other various races, their material was good, I laughed, I didn't think for a second, holy shit! A black guy/ woman is making me laugh.
I thought, wow this guy/ gal, is very funny - At the end of the day you're getting threatening heckles, you're doing your gigs in very dodgy places...
I've done stand up and it's tough, personally I feel if anyone with a strong 10 - 20 minutes and enough time to just gig gig gig could get recognised to some extent.
I find it unfortunate there aren't many women on the circuit, possibly due to the things you mentioned, I really do hope it's a unique case or it's a very sad state of affairs for comedy / stand up comedy indeed.
Paul, you're obviously the other 50% of the audience who don't have a problem . But I've heard of first hand accounts of ethnic minorty acts having to leave gigs after facing racial abuse. It doesn't happen very often and they can have great careers, but you can see why it might deter some people from carrying on.
When it comes to stand-up I know I'm not going to connect very easily with a lot of the audience (even the women), so I have to make more of an effort with my material.
There's also the pratical considerations for women doing stand-up, like travelling home late alone: as some who has been harassed and even physically attacked in the past, I'm not entirely comfortable travelling home after a gig. I know this can also happen to men but women are a lot more vulnerable. And when you hear stories of female comedians (I can't remember who it was now) having a member of the audience jumping on stage and lifting her skirt up, it can be a bit off putting. And even 'nice' venues can turn nasty sometimes with the wrong drunk audience.
Quote: Dolly Dagger @ March 12, 2008, 5:29 PMPaul, you're obviously the other 50% of the audience who don't have a problem
When it comes to stand-up I know I'm not going to connect very easily with a lot of the audience (even the women), so I have to make more of an effort with my material.
There's also the pratical considerations for women doing stand-up, like travelling home late alone: as some who has been harassed and even physically attacked in the past, I'm not entirely comfortable travelling home after a gig. I know this can also happen to men but women are a lot more vulnerable. And when you hear stories of female comedians (I can't remember who it was now) having a member of the audience jumping on stage and lifting her skirt up, it can be a bit off putting. And even 'nice' venues can turn nasty sometimes with the wrong drunk audience.
It is a bad situation, I would ask you not to give up though, if you make it you won't meet tossers like that (unless you get interviewed by Jonathan Ross).
I guess I've been lucky, I of course have met tossers (fortunately not too much on stage) but I have sat with terrible hecklers and have felt like saying something rather than watching the comic die on his arse. Guess it has to happen to everyone though.
And if you're ever in the midlands, I'll give you a lift home from a gig 
I have to say that stand-up is only A route into comedy and not particularly the best/easiest. You certainly don't get heckled because your a woman if you write, especially as you can use a pseudo name too. Also, performing and recording clips is also a good way and less soul-destroying.
To be fair, stand-up has got to be the hardest of the comedy disciplines regardless of who you are and I admire anyone who does it. I think there is loads of discrimination in standup from an audience as you can be heckled about anything from your sex, shape, age etc.
I think it could comes down to confidence.
Men are perhaps more confident because they've traditionally dominated the industry and therefore made the rules. There's more precedent for men producing comedy certainly.
Sure this will change though. And the last thing on earth that would help is positive discrimination.