I read the news today oh boy! Page 2,022

Quote: billwill @ 22nd March 2019, 10:44 AM

so assuming that those 20,000 are actual UK citizens, that is 4 percent

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The biggest ever petition in the history of this country got over 4 million and was in 2016 for a second vote. This is the second biggest and it has the fastest rate of sign up ever recorded. How many records need breaking ? The fact they can't even bulldoze this through using brute force, surely its time to rethink ? Now we know the truth, most people don't want this. Democracy is about the majority, not about tricking people with lies and then saying no takie bakies.

Quote: Firkin @ 22nd March 2019, 11:16 AM

The biggest ever petition in the history of this country got over 4 million and was in 2016 for a second vote. This is the second biggest and it has the fastest rate of sign up ever recorded. How many records need breaking ?

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4 million cases of sour grapes shouldn't be enough to overturn the result of a popular vote. Justin Bieber has more than a hundred million followers on Twitter and could easily get 20 million people to sign a petition declaring him King of England, but that doesn't mean that it should happen.

Quote: DaButt @ 22nd March 2019, 11:32 AM

4 million cases of sour grapes shouldn't be enough to overturn the result of a popular vote. Justin Bieber has more than a hundred million followers on Twitter and could easily get 20 million people to sign a petition declaring him King of England, but that doesn't mean that it should happen.

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No it didn't happen - and I bothered to sign that one when I was syphoning out petrol from a Vauxhall Invicta in Maidstone, Venezuela.

Quote: DaButt @ 22nd March 2019, 11:32 AM

Justin Bieber... could easily get 20 million people to sign a petition declaring him King of England, but that doesn't mean that it should happen.

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And there, in a nutshell, is the argument against plebiscites.
This country would have the death penalty, and homosexuality would be illegal if it had been put to the people at the time.
Governments should lead, not follow.

If - but they weren't put to a referendum. Also, it isn't a consistent principle. Abortion could not have been introduced in Ireland without a referendum on that topic as there would have been civil unrest. There is no history of referendums on the death penalty and homosexuality. There is on Europe because there was one in 1975.

I tentatively voted Remain without any enthusiasm whatsoever as the EU has stood aside as working class kids have had their wages falling and homes have become out of their reach. Far from being good for young people, it has been a total bastard. It hasn't stopped Blairite wars. It hasn't stopped fracking tests. It hasn't stopped the privatisation of the Health Service and education. No - by standing by, it has actively promoted these things. It has also sabre rattled at Russia, been happy to be an American poodle, been entirely relaxed about austerity, failed to balance its books and led to millions of drug addicts of all races in gutters from Grimsby to Greece. That's the EU - and as I say I was even prepared to give it the benefit of the doubt by voting Remain. Now all of a sudden it has become some kind of weirdo religion. If more people believed in God, they wouldn't have such cultist needs.

The moment the result came through, I became a staunch leaver purely on the grounds of the majority outcome. That means more to me than anything else. I would be prepared to die penniless in a ditch over it and watch everyone dying of mass starvation because of it as my uncles fought in the war. Literally, I would be prepared to cut my own head off if it isn't delivered now. The public can't be mucked about in this way without a good couple of million considering becoming Guy Fawkes. I'm 56 and harmless. But certainly if it really isn't delivered, I will laugh out loud if there is a civil war and I think it will happen. LIberalism is risking being crushed by the jackboot and it will only have itself to blame. I doubt that there will even be middle class homeowners after it happens.

Quote: Lazzard @ 22nd March 2019, 11:48 AM

[quote name="DaButt" post="1200840" date="22nd March 2019, 11:32 AM". Justin Bieber... could easily get 20 million people to sign a petition declaring him King of England, but that doesn't mean that it should happen.

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And there, in a nutshell, is the argument against plebiscites.
[/quote]

That's a ridiculous example to use to cap an argument.

Plebiscites by their very nature are 100% democratic, which is not what we have now or ever had voting in a load of money grabbing tossers jumping on the gravy train. OK there are a few exceptions, say like Wedgie Benn who I think was sincere even though I don't agree with his politics, at least he seemed honest and for the people. Not like the wanker career politicians such as Bliar.

And don't get me started on the House of Lords............................

Tony Benn must be rolling in his grave.

The media never mentions Dennis Skinner's anti EU position these days because they don't want to upset Corbyn.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-pHBXL4fIOE

Corbyn's a Marxist - 'course he's anti-EU

Quote: Lazzard @ 22nd March 2019, 12:48 PM

Corbyn's a Marxist - 'course he's anti-EU

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You will also not be told by the media that (Lord) David Owen, a moderate Social Democrat, who left Labour after being this country's youngest Foreign Secretary of the 20th Century because he believed in the EEC is now vehemently against the EU. I wrote to him recently and he had the courtesy to address the points I - a nobody - made in an e-mail in thoughtful detail. I will reproduce it here if you want proof. If someone like that can respect a member of the public, then it proves the current shower who ignore the public have the most monstrous egos.

http://www.lorddavidowen.co.uk/

(David Owen is pretty much where I am politically but there is no Brexit Social Democratic Party to vote for)

I've never understood the attraction of democracy.

Nothing that works is run democratically.

Our very first experience of having to operate under rules is in the home - and homes are not run democratically.

We then move on to school - and schools are not run democratically.

Later, we find ourselves in an office, a shop, a factory or some other workplace - which is not run democratically.

Some of us may join the Armed Forces or the police force - which are not run democratically.

Democracy is two foxes and a chicken deciding what they're going to have for lunch: it's a joke!

Whatever side you stand on it is becoming obvious that the current polarisation is only going to get worse and the way things are going how long will it be before Momentum and UKIP go head to head and we end up with people shooting at each other from behind bins?
Make no mistake Momentum and a re-energised UKIP could easily the vanguards and we could see the 1930's all over again.
For those that want out I can see your stance and for those want to stay I agree with your caution. But we are the thinking ones who should debate without ridiculing each other.

Because if both sides continue as they are doing Brexit will bring troubles we never even knew we had on top of the ones we suspect we may have.

This started with Leave voters saying 'Great for us, win win' Now the same people are asking for the Dunkirk Spirit like its now a war and we should all be happy to be on half rations.

On the remain side the bogeyman has yet to materialise and nothing is being done about gang masters dropping off non unionised foreign workers in towns with mass unemployment or the fact that any Tom Dick or Harry can walk into the country and start carrying on shocking.

So there's a lot to be done and the first step is compromise and to that end I think that the Leave campaigners should apologise first and then see how we can help them out of the mess they've made..... See how it easy it is to rankle Come on folks lets meet in No Mans Land and have a game of footy .

Quote: Lazzard @ 22nd March 2019, 11:48 AM

Governments should lead, not follow.

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Governments should respect the wishes of the people. The people voted to Leave.

Quote: Teddy Paddalack @ 22nd March 2019, 3:15 PM

Whatever side you stand on it is becoming obvious that the current polarisation is only going to get worse and the way things are going how long will it be before Momentum and UKIP go head to head and we end up with people shooting at each other from behind bins?
Make no mistake Momentum and a re-energised UKIP could easily the vanguards and we could see the 1930's all over again.
For those that want out I can see your stance and for those want to stay I agree with your caution. But we are the thinking ones who should debate without ridiculing each other.

Because if both sides continue as they are doing Brexit will bring troubles we never even knew we had on top of the ones we suspect we may have.

This started with Leave voters saying 'Great for us, win win' Now the same people are asking for the Dunkirk Spirit like its now a war and we should all be happy to be on half rations.

On the remain side the bogeyman has yet to materialise and nothing is being done about gang masters dropping off non unionised foreign workers in towns with mass unemployment or the fact that any Tom Dick or Harry can walk into the country and start carrying on shocking.

So there's a lot to be done and the first step is compromise and to that end I think that the Leave campaigners should apologise first and then see how we can help them out of the mess they've made..... See how it easy it is to rankle Come on folks lets meet in No Mans Land and have a game of footy .

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Folks?

For the record, the non offensive term in regard to me is "moving figure of bones and blood with a very dark though totally white skin and the male (rather than any other) genitalia".

But anyhow, I AM in No Man's Land. It is called supporting the PM's deal after which we can kick off with a decent trade agreement but then I have always been puzzlingly individual.

Incidentally, I think the May deal is absolutely terrific.

There is nothing wrong with it and anyone who says otherwise is being preposterous.

Quote: DaButt @ 22nd March 2019, 4:49 PM

Governments should respect the wishes of the people. The people voted to Leave.

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"In the United States presidential election, the popular vote is not used to elect the President of the United States. There have been five United States presidential elections in which the person who became president received fewer popular votes than their opponent, the most recent being the 2016 presidential election."

Yeah - I know I'm arguing against my own point, but that's Brexit Britain for you.