The touchy subject of race, racism, and race relations Page 2

Quote: DaButt @ 14th February 2018, 8:12 PM

Did you mention it to your employer? It seems to me that their words were a workplace rules violation as opposed to a criminal offense, but I'm by no means an expert in British law.

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It's both and in recent years has become regarded as a much more serious offence and is classed as a hate crime so police will respond when it's reported to them. The fall in police numbers means 100% of reported incidents are probably not followed up and when put in to context what happened with me at work would be on the lesser end of severity but the main point would have been the police visiting and telling those involved they need to choose their words more carefully because some language isn't tolerated. It would at least make them feel small even if it didn't change anything.

I once saw a group of black kids maybe around 15 or 16 years old walking along a path in a park and as a girl walked past them in the opposite direction they were rude and suggestive. They didn't touch her but were being obscene and getting in her face and when she ignored them it turned to insults. She got so enraged that she yelled something with the N word and I heard of them them shout "Oi, you can't say that".

He was right of course and she lost control and has no excuse for her choice of words but I found it interesting how the group of boys seemed to think it was ok for them to harass and verbally degrade a lone female but when they got her so furious she had to retaliate that was the only issue.

Well, either way, it seems the Polis are great at shooting blacks but not much cop at sussng nutters who're about to turn a gun on masses of people in schools - again! When will it end?

Quote: DaButt @ 14th February 2018, 8:50 PM

a rich, white, New Yorker, anti-Trump reporter's opinion piece,

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Your argument boils down to claiming "false news" against main stream press, by labelling them with your perceived bias. You are shooting the messenger, rather than contesting one jot of fact. Very telling.

Well said, Firkin.

Quote: Definitely Tarby @ 14th February 2018, 11:05 PM

I once saw a group of black kids maybe around 15 or 16 years old walking along a path in a park and as a girl walked past them in the opposite direction they were rude and suggestive. They didn't touch her but were being obscene and getting in her face and when she ignored them it turned to insults. She got so enraged that she yelled something with the N word and I heard of them them shout "Oi, you can't say that".

He was right of course and she lost control and has no excuse for her choice of words but I found it interesting how the group of boys seemed to think it was ok for them to harass and verbally degrade a lone female but when they got her so furious she had to retaliate that was the only issue.

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An insult is an insult in my book. It's borderline ridiculous that one is considered a criminal hate crime and the other isn't. Hate is hate, despite the fact that our courts want to have their say in defining it.

Quote: Briosaid @ 15th February 2018, 12:06 AM

Well, either way, it seems the Polis are great at shooting blacks but not much cop at sussng nutters who're about to turn a gun on masses of people in schools - again!

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Looks like the authorities blew it:

https://www.buzzfeed.com/briannasacks/the-fbi-was-warned-about-a-school-shooting-threat-from

Quote: Firkin @ 15th February 2018, 1:01 AM

Your argument boils down to claiming "false news" against main stream press, by labelling them with your perceived bias.

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There is no bias involved. The previously mentioned item came from an opinion piece, not a hard news article. I'm not sure if newspapers work the same in the UK, but the Opinion page is for just that: offering opinions.

Even the New York Times admits that it's a liberal newspaper. Until a few weeks ago, they employed a Public Editor to call out any bias or failure in their reporting. They recently dissolved the position, so now they can be anti-Trump 100% of the time without being called on it. (You'll notice that it was printed on the Opinion page.)

You can spin it all you like but you, sir, have a bias against so called liberal media. It doesn't tend to align with your worldview and experience so you find it untrustworthy. Liberals have the same aversion to right-wing nonsense. Everyone has their biases. Let's all just be honest with ourselves.

Acknowledging your biases regarding racism might be helpful too. I know I as a white person have a tendency to assume most people are not racist. I assume most people are decent human beings and racism is silly anyway. If I was black and experienced discrimination on a regular basis I might be have a different view and would probably not think racism is 'silly'. Neither viewpoint is complete, but in order to have a more complete understanding of the issue I know I have to get outside my singular viewpoint.

As far as cops being racist or not, I think the simplest answer is that probably some of them are, and some aren't (since the same is true of people in general). If some are, then is it not a problem that we should take steps to remedy?

Quote: Davida @ 15th February 2018, 6:16 PM

You can spin it all you like but you, sir, have a bias against so called liberal media.

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No, I don't. I have a problem with biased media outlets. I worked in the newsroom of a daily newspaper for almost a decade and the bias among the staff was palpable. None had ever voted for a Republican, none had ever served in the military, none had ever fired a gun, none were religious, and all of them were white. Not exactly a cross-section of America, and their bias crept into their reporting. They were good people and I'm sure they thought they were impartial, but they weren't.

Quote: Davida @ 15th February 2018, 6:16 PM

It doesn't tend to align with your worldview and experience so you find it untrustworthy.

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I doubt you have much of a handle on my worldview, since I'm essentially a centrist. Way back in my college days our professor had us take one of those political compass tests and I came in square in the middle. It still happens these days: I'm as liberal as I am conservative, and as libertarian as authoritarian. Maybe that's why I've always been able to get along well with almost anyone.

Quote: Davida @ 15th February 2018, 6:16 PM

Acknowledging your biases regarding racism might be helpful too.

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I've seen racism (from people of many races) with my own eyes and I've been the victim of racism. I know that no race is better or worse than any other race, so I have no time for it in my life. I just try to see people as individuals and in my eyes they're all good people until they show themselves to be otherwise.

Quote: Davida @ 15th February 2018, 6:16 PM

As far as cops being racist or not, I think the simplest answer is that probably some of them are, and some aren't (since the same is true of people in general). If some are, then is it not a problem that we should take steps to remedy?

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I agree with all of the above and have said so here many times. My gripe is with the concerted effort to portray white American cops as racists who are out to kill African Americans. The fact that cops kill twice as many whites as African Americans seems to be ignored, as is the fact that many of the killings are done at the hands of non-white officers.

Quote: DaButt @ 15th February 2018, 9:45 PM

No, I don't. I have a problem with biased The fact that cops kill twice as many whites as African Americans seems to be ignored, as is the fact that many of the killings are done at the hands of non-white officers.

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Wouldn't attract any interest, people don't want to read/see that, as it is not sensationalist.

Certainly a liberal leftie doesn't like to learn that reality is different to their perceived view, and nor does someone from the hard right like it either.

And nobody dashes to the telly to learn that a terrorist threat has been avoided...

And people don't stop and gawp when there hasn't been an accident...

There is a middle ground somewhere between, "the tree hugging baying mob of lefties" on Twitter and "the totally unacceptable hard right violent 'boot 'em out' mob" on the Dark Web, or wherever they inhabit.

I'll meet you there, somewhere sensible, in between the extremes.

Quote: DaButt @ 15th February 2018, 9:45 PM

My gripe is with the concerted effort to portray white American cops as racists who are out to kill African Americans. The fact that cops kill twice as many whites as African Americans seems to be ignored

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Maybe your gripe comes from misunderstanding the statistics ? In 2016 Afro Americans account for 13.9% of the population. You state almost twice as many whites are shot, not so. In 2016 , 215 of the police shootings were black while 338 were white. Black Americans where 3 times (300%) more likely to be shot than whites in 2016. So your statement is misleading.

DaButt movements like #black lives matters don't spring up for fun, for no reason. Denying prejudice invalidates all they have been through, its disrespectful. Stating you knew the CVs and political bias of every single person on your paper, but you were the only one without bias, is not evidence its opinion.

Quote: Frankie Mildly Perturbed @ 16th February 2018, 4:48 AM

I'll meet you there, somewhere sensible, in between the extremes.

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I'm already here. Let's go grab a pint and solve the world's problems.

Quote: DaButt @ 16th February 2018, 12:01 PM

I'm already here. Let's go grab a pint and solve the world's problems.

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If I recall rightly, we made that conclusion last time we both inhabited this type of thread and both got bombarded from all sides.

I have noticed that anyone who deviates from that central point is so sure that their views are the 'right views' that they can't accept any view but their own, that's the lefties and the righties. So if you are in the middle - watch out they are all against you!

I find it particularly sad, the intolerant leftie, who can't accept that opinions that differ from theirs could possibly have any validity. The irony of someone who preaches tolerance and inclusivity who won't tolerate or include opinions they don't agree with. And the vehemence of some of their language, the type of language which they abhor in others, becomes perfectly acceptable when they are the ones uttering it.

Anyway, fortunately there is nobody that sad on here, as you would expect, since this is a COMEDY website...

A beer and a LAUGH, then...

Quote: Firkin @ 16th February 2018, 10:11 AM

Maybe your gripe comes from misunderstanding the statistics ? In 2016 Afro Americans account for 13.9% of the population. You state almost twice as many whites are shot, not so. In 2016 , 215 of the police shootings were black while 338 were white.

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I understand the statistics very well. I don't know where you got your figures, but since 2015 the Washington Post has maintained and exhaustive database of police-involved shootings and it is the defacto standard for the subject. It's searchable by gender, race, age, weapon type, etc. at https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/2018/national/police-shootings-2018/

In 2016, 233 African Americans were shot and killed by police. 466 whites were shot and killed, or exactly twice as many. The 2:1 ratio holds true for the other years covered by the database:

In 2015: 259 black, 497 white
In 2017: 223 black, 457 white
In 2018: 23 black, 44 white

Quote: Firkin @ 16th February 2018, 10:11 AM

Black Americans where 3 times (300%) more likely to be shot than whites in 2016.

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That's because, as unpleasant as it is to say, African Americans are overrepresented in murder (both as offenders and victims). Major factors include gangs, street crimes and drug dealing.

The FBI's 2016 murder stats:

Murder Offenders: 5,004 white, 6,095 black
Murder Victims: 6,576 white, 7,881

As you said, African Americans account for about 13% of the population, but they commit more murders and are victims of murder, more than whites.

Quote: Firkin @ 16th February 2018, 10:11 AM

Stating you knew the CVs and political bias of every single person on your paper, but you were the only one without bias, is not evidence its opinion.

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No, it's a fact. It was a small daily newspaper with a newsroom staff of maybe 20 people, and I knew them all very well. They were my friends. We worked about 2 feet apart from one another and I was part of their conversations. I never claimed to be without bias, rather I stated that they were uniformly Democrats, non-vets, anti-gun, etc. I worked there during the Clinton administration and they were unanimous in supporting Bill Clinton against the numerous women who claimed to have been sexually harassed/assaulted by the president. I wonder how things would have been different had the #MeToo Weinstein era arrived 20 years earlier?

Quote: Frankie Mildly Perturbed @ 16th February 2018, 12:15 PM

I find it particularly sad, the intolerant leftie, who can't accept that opinions that differ from theirs could possibly have any validity. The irony of someone who preaches tolerance and inclusivity who won't tolerate or include opinions they don't agree with. And the vehemence of some of their language, the type of language which they abhor in others, becomes perfectly acceptable when they are the ones uttering it.

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Yeah, I always try to take a friendly, middle-of-the-road approach, but it doesn't seem to get me anywhere. Oh well...

You'd think that people could look at the issues without immediately condemning the people on the other side. I don't want immigration reform because I'm racist, I want it because unchecked immigration is unsustainable. I couldn't make a permanent move to England unless your government decided that I would be a value to your country, but currently we're supposed to accept millions of people who illegally cross the border from Mexico. It doesn't seem too difficult for a pro-immigration individual in the UK to see things from the same perspective. What if the United States wanted to send a few million gang members and hardened criminals to the UK? Would there be an uproar from the typically immigration supportive left? Or maybe I can make it even scarier: What if 5 million gun-loving, bible-toting American Republicans wanted to move there?

Quote: DaButt @ 16th February 2018, 12:50 PM

In 2016, 233 African Americans were shot and killed by police. 466 whites were shot and killed, or exactly twice as many. The 2:1 ratio holds true for the other years covered by the database:

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In your black and white figures, you appear to be using Hispanics on whichever side makes your point. The figures I quoted excluded Hispanics . So we are both right. This debate it's becoming very Alice in Wonderland so, I'm out.

Quote: Firkin @ 16th February 2018, 2:02 PM

In your black and white figures, you appear to be using Hispanics on whichever side makes your point. The figures I quoted excluded Hispanics .

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Where are your figures coming from? The Washington Post's database clearly separates blacks, whites and Hispanics and that's where I got my figures.