The touchy subject of race, racism, and race relations

No, race relations doesn't mean father & son Formula 1 drivers.

I created this thread to spare ye olde weather thread from such a touchy subject, and because it's a touchy subject, let's try to keep it civil and friendly.

Quote: zooo @ 13th February 2018, 12:49 PM

Thing is you don't believe anything bad about Republicans, or guns or anything else you love either. So of course you don't believe there's a racist cop problem in America.

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There's a disconnect between what I say and what you remember, since I believe a lot of bad things about Republicans. I have a lot of bad things to say about most politicians in general. I've been pretty clear that I'm not a big fan of Donald Trump and that I only voted for him because Hillary was a far more terrible option, as I saw it.

I don't love guns. They're inanimate hunks of plastic, metal and wood. I enjoy shooting guns, I've hunted a few times, and I'm a strong proponent of an individual's constitutional right to defend themselves with a firearm if they so desire. I'm neither obsessed with guns, nor in love with them.

I never said that there wasn't a problem with racist cops in this country, because I'm sure that there are a few of them out there. But my response was to your assertion that American cops kill African Americans for no reason. Two entirely different things. Cops kill people for essentially one reason only: they were a current, imminent, or perceived threat to someone's life.

Quote: Alfred J Kipper @ 14th February 2018, 12:31 AM

Tarby you've just highlighted the biggest contradictory twaddle that comes from the politically correct language police. HTF did coloured become offensive when saying persons of colour isn't? It's the same f**king word seen by pc nutters as heinous one way and correct usage another.

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That's a very good point. The foremost scholarship program for African American students is called The United Negro College Fund. The primary institution for seeking improvement in the lives of black Americans is called The National Association for the Advancement of Colored People (NAACP). Those terms have clearly been cast aside for general, polite usage, but they still figure prominently in the names of these respected institutions.

Descriptions go in and out of style/acceptance. If someone uses them it may be due to habit and not outright racism. I strive to use the term "African American" in order to be polite, but it feels weird in some circumstances (such as discussing race on a message board where the black people are not at all American).

Quote: Alfred J Kipper @ 14th February 2018, 12:31 AM

There is also a very clear distinction between direct racism and indirect racism, direct being undeniably offensive. But anyone who really goes to the police to report someone casually using a stray word to same race peers with no other races present ought be charged with wasting police time which is a much more real and serious offence.

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That's essentially how I felt, but I wasn't sure if UK laws would see it the same way. We shouldn't be in the habit of criminalizing words, especially when they aren't directed at anyone in particular. Racism is a bad, bad thing, but so is overreacting and over-legislating private behavior.

I saw that the UK's laws include religion-based attacks. Muslims and Jews excepted, are people reported to the police for saying mean/hurtful things about Christians? Or atheists, for that matter?

Er, you know the answer to that one. We have people ringing radio chat shows and in Question Time audiences bring that one up all the time now, with good bloody reason. The anti racism lobby are pushing a completely one sided agenda and now they're being found out.

So many of them come from the left of the Labour party and are setting Labour council agendas and that's why Corbyn will never be PM. For all his genuine social concerns which are admirable and do need addressing his Stalinistic thought police fringe scare the shite out of most of us.

Quote: Alfred J Kipper @ 14th February 2018, 2:08 AM

For all his genuine social concerns which are admirable and do need addressing his Stalinistic thought police fringe scare the shite out of most of us.

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It seems to be an increasingly common problem. "I'm open-minded about everything, but..."

That's a very big "but." I'll refrain from posting a Sir Mix-a-Lot video.

When people think it's ok to paint half of a nation as racists/misogynists/homophobes/deplorables, it only shows how desperate and closed-minded they actually are.

This is a scary thread to post in.

I wonder if it is possible to post ANYTHING on this topic that SOMEBODY won't find offensive...

?

Quote: DaButt @ 13th February 2018, 12:46 PM

Absolutely untrue, although I can't blame you for believing it, because it's what the press tries very hard to present as the truth. The truth is that cops shoot more white people than African Americans, but the number of wrongful shootings of people of any race can be counted on the fingers of one hand -- even if you're rather clumsy when it comes to chopping onions in the kitchen with a very sharp knife.

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Any thoughts on the data in the following article: https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/black-people-killed-by-police-america_us_577da633e4b0c590f7e7fb17 Do you just dismiss such stuff as "fake news"? Why are the cops shooting the unarmed black men? Because of a perceived threat? Man with hands in the air, man reaching for driving license, those are threats?

Quote: Frankie Mildly Perturbed @ 14th February 2018, 3:24 AM

This is a scary thread to post in.

I wonder if it is possible to post ANYTHING on this topic that SOMEBODY won't find offensive...

?

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That's the problem with today's world: people think they have the right to never be offended. To be offended is to be human, it's a part of life. How you react to the offense is what matters. Do you lash out with offensive words of your own, do you try to reason with the other person, do you listen carefully to their words, do you accept that they might think differently than you do?

A polite discussion never hurt anyone. Jumping straight into insults and invectives is where we often derail the discussion process.

But where is all the racism or racial hatred coming from.
I'd like to bet from a tiny minority that get their voices heard.

The absolute majority of people are not in the least racist - it doesn't cross their minds to have different thoughts about people depending on colour/race or culture. People are people, good and bad.

I remember when I was a little boy and an Asian family moved in a few doors down.
It was the talk of the village.
They were different and people were suspicious. Strange smells came out of their house when the mother was cooking.
Strange smells now that are lovely.
Their boy was the same age as me and we became firm friends.
His mother used to send him out to play with a chapatti smeared with jam and rolled up.
He gave me half and it was the most beautiful thing I had ever tasted.
She then gave him 2 - one for me and it was a treat to scoff it as we went on our adventures.

My mother saw him give me one and came out and took it off me. She threw it away saying I didn't know what was in it.
I wasn't allowed to have any more and I had to tell his mother that.
She was hurt and I was confused.....

A racial rift right there over nothing.

Quote: Stephen Goodlad @ 14th February 2018, 1:43 PM

But where is all the racism or racial hatred coming from. I'd like to bet from a tiny minority that get their voices heard.

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I have little doubt this is true for you and your colleges Stephen, but just because we don't see or experience something ourselves, doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Read up on the Medford gang in America 2008. It demonstrated rampant racism and institutionalised racism from the Police. We had the same in the UK with the Laurence affair and Brixton riots. If institutions, Donald Trump for example, are allowed to be racist, it's pretty bad.

Quote: Firkin @ 14th February 2018, 3:57 PM

Read up on the Medford gang in America 2008. It demonstrated rampant racism and institutionalised racism from the Police.

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I've never heard of the Medford gang. Citation?

Quote: Firkin @ 14th February 2018, 3:57 PM

If institutions, Donald Trump for example, are allowed to be racist, it's pretty bad.

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I can't think of a single American institution where racism is allowed, with the exception of the Klan and other supremacist organizations, and they are essentially miniscule pimples on an elephant's ass.

Despite him wanting to build a wall between us and Mexico, you'll have a hard time convincing my dozens of Mexican-American friends that Donald Trump is a racist. About 80% of them voted for him and they'll all admit that he can be a self-absorbed twit, but none have ever called him a racist.

Quote: Stephen Goodlad @ 14th February 2018, 1:43 PM

My mother saw him give me one and came out and took it off me. She threw it away saying I didn't know what was in it.
I wasn't allowed to have any more and I had to tell his mother that.
She was hurt and I was confused.....

A racial rift right there over nothing.

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Quote: Kenneth @ 14th February 2018, 3:41 AM

Any thoughts on the data in the following article: https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/black-people-killed-by-police-america_us_577da633e4b0c590f7e7fb17 Do you just dismiss such stuff as "fake news"?

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No, but Huffpo is known to be a left-leaning publication, so its reporting is often skewed. I consider it the Fox News of the Left, so I don't pay any attention to it, just as I ignore Fox News.

Quote: Kenneth @ 14th February 2018, 3:41 AM

Why are the cops shooting the unarmed black men?

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Let's clear up a few things about that story:

1) Just because someone isn't armed, that doesn't mean that they weren't a threat to someone's life. Someone who is stomping a person to death isn't armed. Someone who tries to run over a cop isn't armed. Someone who tries to grab an officer's pistol isn't armed -- yet. Someone who makes a sudden move to shove their hand in their pocket or down their waistband after being ordered not to might not be armed, but the officer doesn't know that and they have less than a second to react.

2) The story mentions by name 4 black men who were shot and killed by police:

a) Keith Lamont Scott: He was armed with an illegally purchased and carried pistol. He exited his vehicle with the gun in his hand and was shot after ignoring 10 commands to drop his weapon. He was smoking marijuana at the time.

b) Terence Crutcher: Unarmed, yet refusing to follow police commands, even while at gunpoint by several officers. He was shot as he disobeyed officers and attempted to reach into his vehicle. A taser was deployed and proved ineffective, as they often do when used against people under the influence of heavy drugs. PCP was found in his vehicle and an autopsy showed that he was in a state of acute PCP intoxication at the time of the shooting.

c) Philando Castile: (in)famous for his girlfriend's streamed video after he was shot. He was armed, but had a permit to carry. The cop was polite during the initial phase of the incident and then warned the driver repeatedly to stop reaching after he was informed of the presence of a gun. It appears that the man was probably trying to reach for his wallet, but we'll never know. The proper response to being pulled over while legally carrying is to place your hands on the dashboard or steering wheel, inform the officer of the presence and location of the firearm, and then follow their instructions to the letter. If an officer yells "Don't reach!" and you reach, you're probably going to get shot, even if you were lawfully carrying. Cops say that he was smoking marijuana in front of a small child in his vehicle before he was pulled over.

d) Alton Sterling: He was armed with a pistol at the time of his arrest, was fighting with officers, shrugged off taser strikes, and was shot while wrestling with officers. He had a previous arrest for gun-related violence.

Of the 4 black men shot and killed by the police, 3 were armed and they were all ignoring orders while being held at gunpoint. Three were under the influence of illegal drugs and one was actively fighting with the police. So, why are the cops shooting the unarmed black men? The simple answer is: they aren't, at least not in the numbers that you might believe.

3) Only 2 of the 4 cases involved an African American being shot by a white cop. That puts a bit of a dent in the "cops are shooting black men because they're racist" claim.

Quote: DaButt @ 14th February 2018, 1:18 AM

That's a very good point. The foremost scholarship program for African American students is called The United Negro College Fund. The primary institution for seeking improvement in the lives of black Americans is called The National Association for the Advancement of Colored People (NAACP). Those terms have clearly been cast aside for general, polite usage, but they still figure prominently in the names of these respected institutions.

Descriptions go in and out of style/acceptance. If someone uses them it may be due to habit and not outright racism. I strive to use the term "African American" in order to be polite, but it feels weird in some circumstances (such as discussing race on a message board where the black people are not at all American).

That's essentially how I felt, but I wasn't sure if UK laws would see it the same way. We shouldn't be in the habit of criminalizing words, especially when they aren't directed at anyone in particular. Racism is a bad, bad thing, but so is overreacting and over-legislating private behavior.

I saw that the UK's laws include religion-based attacks. Muslims and Jews excepted, are people reported to the police for saying mean/hurtful things about Christians? Or atheists, for that matter?

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In response to Mr Kipper: I'm really not oversensitive about it or easily offended but I view the word coloured as outdated especially when spoken by someone too embarrassed to use the word black which is what I have experienced. I just googled if coloured is now considered offensive rather than the intended polite usage it once had and there are many who don't disagree with that.

The people I worked with who used the N word did so in a clearly derogatory manner displaying their clearly prejudice views and this is not acceptable anywhere and certainly not in the workplace. Anyone who thinks there is no problem with that has questionable beliefs. One of those people also laughed once when they heard of a plane crash in India resulting in mass casualties. They said "so what, it doesn't affect me". classy.

I should have been clearer when I mentioned people using the word immigrant because I agree if someone is an immigrant it shouldn't cause offence to use a factually correct term but I was referring to people who automatically think someone is an immigrant because they are non-white or they wear a turban or they have a name they can't pronounce etc. It doesn't occur to them that the person could have been born here or that the last 10 generations of their family were born here and and are as British as them so that is the ignorance I was highlighting.

Quote: DaButt @ 14th February 2018, 4:31 PM

I've never heard of the Medford gang. Citation?......miniscule pimples on an elephant's ass.

Despite him wanting to build a wall between us and Mexico, you'll have a hard time convincing my dozens of Mexican-American friends that Donald Trump is a racist. About 80% of them voted for him and they'll all admit that he can be a self-absorbed twit, but none have ever called him a racist.

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The New York Times published evidence of Trumps racist actions and words: https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2018/01/15/opinion/leonhardt-trump-racist.html

The racists Medford gang, and race bias investigating Police: https://www.cbsnews.com/news/four-new-york-teens-sentenced-in-2008-hate-crime/

Evidence of institutionalised racism: https://blacklivesmatter.com/

Other than what your report all your Mexican chums think, do you have any tangible, credible, research to back up you pimple on an elephants ass claim ? *

*hopes DaButt is reviewing pictures of elephant's butts right now.

Quote: Definitely Tarby @ 14th February 2018, 6:34 PM

The people I worked with who used the N word did so in a clearly derogatory manner displaying their clearly prejudice views and this is not acceptable anywhere and certainly not in the workplace.

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Did you mention it to your employer? It seems to me that their words were a workplace rules violation as opposed to a criminal offense, but I'm by no means an expert in British law.

Quote: Firkin @ 14th February 2018, 7:52 PM

The New York Times published evidence of Trumps racist actions and words: https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2018/01/15/opinion/leonhardt-trump-racist.html

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You'll notice that it was posted in the "Opinions" section of the newspaper, as opposed to the "News" section. So who is the writer? Let's check Wikipedia:

David Leonhardt (born January 1, 1973) is an American journalist and columnist writing from a liberal progressive perspective.

In other words, he's part of the self-described "Resistance." Imagine that, someone who hates Donald Trump bashes Donald Trump on the pages of an anti-Trump media outlet. Yet another example of the modern tendency throw claims of racism at anyone who utters a word about the nation's immigration problem. Is it any more convincing than an anti-Obama piece published by Fox News? Nope.

Quote: Firkin @ 14th February 2018, 7:52 PM

The racists Medford gang, and race bias investigating Police: https://www.cbsnews.com/news/four-new-york-teens-sentenced-in-2008-hate-crime/

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That story mentions nothing about racism by police. It appears to be about a small group of teens who attacked Hispanics and were tried and convicted. One of the suspects was named Jose Pacheco, so it seems strange that he would be involved in anti-Hispanic violence, and another one of the suspects is clearly African American.

Quote: Firkin @ 14th February 2018, 7:52 PM

Evidence of institutionalised racism: https://blacklivesmatter.com/

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Yeah, many of them appear to be quite racist.

Quote: Firkin @ 14th February 2018, 7:52 PM

TOther than what your report all your Mexican chums think, do you have any tangible, credible, research to back up you pimple on an elephants ass claim ?

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When my choices of information are either a rich, white, New Yorker, anti-Trump reporter's opinion piece, or the words of dozens of my close Mexican-American friends who live a hundred miles away from Mexico, guess who I'm inclined to believe?

The Klan used to have 4 million members. Now they have 5000. I've never met a white supremacist. I've never met a Klan member. They're a blip. An annoying, disgusting blip, but nothing more than an impotent blip.

Quote: Firkin @ 14th February 2018, 7:52 PM

*hopes DaButt is reviewing pictures of elephant's butts right now.

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Not really my sorta kink, I'm afraid. My only kinks are of the Davies variety.