More to the point, what's a thread about guns doing on a comedy forum? Aaron, please note.
Aww, shoot. Let's bang on about guns. Try to stay on target. Page 3
Because the 'News' thread was forever being hijacked by circular arguments along the lines of:
Poster 1: Another shooting massacre in the USA. That's bad.
Poster 2: Yes, guns are bad.
Poster 3: No, guns are good! Guns are fun!
Poster 2: You have a serious problem if you can't admit that guns are a problem.
Poster 3: No, you have lost the debate because I am an American gun-owner and Trump-voter, and anyone who disagrees with me is wrong.
Poster 4: Meanwhile, in other news...
Poster 2: Back on guns, you seem to love your right to own guns, more than you value human life.
Poster 3: How dare you!
Poster 4: Jeezus wept, give it a rest.
Hence this thread was started.
Quote: billwill @ 1st December 2017, 7:27 PMWhat you are talking about is a mythical right to break the law.
The good news is that compliance with Hawaii's request is likely to be zero.
Quote: Kenneth @ 2nd December 2017, 2:12 AMLet's be honest, racism is at the heart of America's obsession with guns.
Let's be honest, you're full of crap.
Quote: Kenneth @ 2nd December 2017, 2:12 AMDon't deny that you love them when you bray here endlessly in defense of guns.
I don't love them, but I enjoy shooting them. It's fun. Hell, there are even multiple shooting events in the Olympics.
Quote: beaky @ 2nd December 2017, 10:47 AMMore to the point, what's a thread about guns doing on a comedy forum? Aaron, please note.
I suspect Aaron created the "General Discussion" forum so that non-comedy subjects would have a proper home.
Quote: Kenneth @ 2nd December 2017, 11:12 AMPoster 3: No, you have lost the debate because I am an American gun-owner and Trump-voter, and anyone who disagrees with me is wrong.
People lose the debate when they say ridiculous things like "Racism is at the heart of America's obsession with guns."
My posts on the matter are factual, polite, and well-reasoned. Anyone is free to disagree with me, just as they're free to avoid this thread if the subject matter bothers them.
Quote: DaButt @ 2nd December 2017, 2:01 PMLet's be honest, you're full of crap.
My posts on the matter are factual, polite, and well-reasoned.
You honestly think that America's history of racism played zero role in its current gun culture? And that there is no ongoing sense of fear among some whites that they need guns to protect themselves from blacks? Remind me why some of your highway patrol cops like to shoot black men when the black man is reaching for his license?
I must say that DaButt is a great asset to the boards, loads of really good and informed posts on a variety of subjects, if only we could cure him of his unhealthy obsession! 
Some here seem to be confusing a criminally inclined liking of guns for a genuinely recreational and historical and aesthetic liking of guns. Reading these threads you'd think every gun ever made had been used only in murdering innocent people. Most guns made have been used in wars and then either destroyed or used in gun enthusiast clubs or decommissioned and gone to museums or collectors' markets. Without the USA's great gun industry we in Britain would be living under the 5th or 6th reich now, would you be happy with that?
Even before their entering the war late again, without their Browning 30 and 50 cal machine guns Britain would have lost the Battle of Britain. With the Nazis occupying Britain as well as most of western Europe then the liberation of France was impossible and probably the allied victory. And without the Thompson sub machine gun our famous commando raids would have been catastrophic failures and not the legends they are with tales of heroism and courage. Without weapons of any era we would have a seriously depleted culture with fewer legends, fewer heroes, fewer fairy tales and stories, fewer relics and museum pieces.
Many weapons have also been seriously good looking things, well crafted and aesthetically pleasing with guns no exception at all. It would be crazy for humans not to have an instinctive liking for them as items. I'd post images of a Lee Enfield, M1 Garand rifle and Schmeiser or Russian PPSH sub machine guns or the enduring design classic AK47, with a Colt 45 thrown in. These are all highly desirable objects for people with no interest in violence.
How does that relate to 32000 gun deaths in the USA every year?
But the guns were pretty, oh well, that changes things.
I know gangsters, suicides etc... but they are all still dead.
How many people in the UK get depressed and have suicidal thoughts?
But to take your own life takes positive actions whereas 'oh, there's a gun in the drawer' takes seconds with no time to reflect.
No I'm not giving it as an excuse but saying most guns made have served in a non criminal act and stopped at that, whatever your take on war or militarism. Guns aren't bad, people are. And both guns and people can be and often are attractive to the eye.
I suppose laws can be bad and a never ending clause in a constitution doesn't now seem to have been a fantastic idea, given the proliferation of guns into American society it's seen introduced. But blaming legal responsible gun owners for the problem isn't correct or fair and won't solve the problem.
The problem was made well over a hundred years ago and is nigh on impossible to solve now. And our violent criminals in Britain are hardly perfect, our knife crime rates are disgusting for a civilised country. In terms of single acts of violence per capita I doubt we're that much better than the USA. A knife attacker may well want to kill dozens like a single shooter does in the states, but his weapon limits him to a few at most before he's stopped. The problem that needs to be tackled is violent crime. Good luck to our masters in that.
Quote: Alfred J Kipper @ 2nd December 2017, 10:06 PMSome here seem to be confusing a criminally inclined liking of guns for a genuinely recreational and historical and aesthetic liking of guns. Reading these threads you'd think every gun ever made had been used only in murdering innocent people. Most guns made have been used in wars and then either destroyed or used in gun enthusiast clubs or decommissioned and gone to museums or collectors' markets. Without the USA's great gun industry we in Britain would be living under the 5th or 6th reich now, would you be happy with that?
So facile. Of course countries need armed security forces. What they don't need is guns in the hands of members of the public, especially in urban areas.
I agree Kenneth, so how do you stop that? because guns are illegal to own in Britain but that doesn't stop criminals owning them or using them to kill in London or Manchester does it. If the law's failed here how on earth would it work in the States, where there are a damn site more guns in circulation?
There are plenty of guns in London, a colleague of mine had one pulled on him by a cyclist in North Ken. I witnessed a police raid on a gun gang a few years back in Harlesden and heard gun shots one afternoon in Hackney, followed by police sirens. Guns come into Britain from Eastern Europe by the hundreds every month and every one of them is illegal. Morning btw.
Quote: beaky @ 2nd December 2017, 10:47 AMMore to the point, what's a thread about guns doing on a comedy forum? Aaron, please note.
It'll die off soon if we don't feed it. Pun intended.
Quote: DaButt @ 2nd December 2017, 2:01 PMI don't love them, but I enjoy shooting them. It's fun. Hell, there are even multiple shooting events in the Olympics.
Meanwhile...
DaButt's daughter...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JefaJ8h9QbI
Quote: Alfred J Kipper @ 3rd December 2017, 8:27 AMI agree Kenneth, so how do you stop that? because guns are illegal to own in Britain but that doesn't stop criminals owning them or using them to kill in London or Manchester does it. If the law's failed here how on earth would it work in the States, where there are a damn site more guns in circulation?
How to stop criminals getting guns? Don't let in criminals or guns. Beef up your border patrols. Beef up your customs inspections.
Stop letting in conservative religious immigrants. Religion is ignorance. Allowing in people who subscribe to Wahabbist Islam is really dumb.
What percentage of criminals in Britain are carrying guns?
The law hasn't failed if you aren't having thousands of gun deaths each year, silly.
Rather than a defeatist attitude based on logical fallacies, do something. Start a mental revolution. Stop the glorification of guns and gangs.
Quote: Alfred J Kipper @ 3rd December 2017, 8:27 AMThere are plenty of guns in London, a colleague of mine had one pulled on him by a cyclist in North Ken. I witnessed a police raid on a gun gang a few years back in Harlesden and heard gun shots one afternoon in Hackney, followed by police sirens.
A friend of mine saw a swallow in May. And I saw a photo of a swallow in June, and later in South Kip I heard what might have been a swallow. Therefore it must have been the season of Spring (in Australia). These are hard facts.
Quote: Kapow @ 3rd December 2017, 12:51 PMDaButt's daughter... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JefaJ8h9QbI
Is that supposed to be funny? A child being trained how to kill?
Quote: Kenneth @ 2nd December 2017, 3:24 PMYou honestly think that America's history of racism played zero role in its current gun culture?
Yes. Honestly.
Quote: Kenneth @ 2nd December 2017, 3:24 PMAnd that there is no ongoing sense of fear among some whites that they need guns to protect themselves from blacks?
I wouldn't call it fear and I wouldn't restrict it to a single race, but yes, many Americans own firearms to protect themselves from criminals of all races.
Quote: Kenneth @ 2nd December 2017, 3:24 PMRemind me why some of your highway patrol cops like to shoot black men when the black man is reaching for his license?
I don't think there's a cop in this country who "likes" to shoot anyone. It's a traumatic event for everyone involved. That said, they are trained to defend themselves against the very real threat of being shot: 42 police officers have been shot to death so far this year. The number of people killed by cops who weren't refusing to comply, armed, fighting and grabbing for an officer's weapon, or reaching into a waistband or pocket, approaches zero. Cops are sometimes jailed in those cases.
Let's look at some actual statistics:
So far in 2017, police have shot and killed 903 people.
418 were white. 21 of them were unarmed.
205 were black. 15 of them were unarmed.
You can Google the names and read the news stories about the shootings if you want the whole picture.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/national/police-shootings-2017/
Quote: Alfred J Kipper @ 2nd December 2017, 10:06 PMI'd post images of a Lee Enfield, M1 Garand rifle and Schmeiser or Russian PPSH sub machine guns or the enduring design classic AK47, with a Colt 45 thrown in. These are all highly desirable objects for people with no interest in violence.
They're amazing pieces of craftsmanship and engineering that remain functional for centuries. I'd like a nice 1911, just because they're so iconic.
Quote: Stephen Goodlad @ 2nd December 2017, 10:40 PMHow many people in the UK get depressed and have suicidal thoughts?
But to take your own life takes positive actions whereas 'oh, there's a gun in the drawer' takes seconds with no time to reflect.
Downing a bottle of pills isn't all that more complicated than pulling a trigger.
Again, I'll say that suicide figures have no place in discussions of gun crime, as there's always a belt or razor blade handy. I've been to the UK 4 times, and on every visit I've had a train significantly delayed by a suicide on the tracks. That's probably the only method of suicide that's messier than using a gun.
Quote: Alfred J Kipper @ 3rd December 2017, 1:09 AMThe problem that needs to be tackled is violent crime.
Absolutely.
Quote: Kenneth @ 3rd December 2017, 1:34 AMOf course countries need armed security forces. What they don't need is guns in the hands of members of the public, especially in urban areas.
Should guns be removed from the hands of law-abiding citizens, leaving them literally outgunned by the armed criminals on the streets? That's the big question.
For what it's worth, I spent several years in uniform. There are more than 20 million veterans in this country, so it's not as if we're all untrained when it comes to handling weapons.
Quote: Kapow @ 3rd December 2017, 12:51 PMDaButt's daughter...
Right city, but not my daughter. She's in her thirties, but she's also a very competent shooter. Her fiance manages a gun store and is planning to become a cop, so they're very safe around guns.
Quote: Kenneth @ 3rd December 2017, 3:15 PMThe law hasn't failed if you aren't having thousands of gun deaths each year, silly.
Although you also can't say it's been successful if you weren't previously having thousands of gun deaths each year.
Quote: Kenneth @ 3rd December 2017, 3:15 PMIs that supposed to be funny? A child being trained how to kill?
She's not being trained to kill. She's being trained for the sport of competitive shooting. And very well, I might add.