Quote: DaButt @ 5th November 2017, 8:20 PMNews reports say that someone killed at least 27 people in a church just outside of my city. It's a very small town. My neighbor is a neurosurgeon and may have to operate on some of the wounded. What the hell is wrong with people?
The world is a f**king mess.
Quote: zooo @ 5th November 2017, 8:49 PMThe world is a f**king mess.
Some people certainly are. I wish they'd just kill themselves without taking innocent lives in the process.
Quote: DaButt @ 5th November 2017, 8:20 PMNews reports say that someone killed at least 27 people in a church just outside of my city. It's a very small town. My neighbor is a neurosurgeon and may have to operate on some of the wounded. What the hell is wrong with people?
Has it got anything to do with guns?
Good grief Chappers, haven't you been listening? People kill - not guns.
How many times must you read that Yanks keep guns to protect themselves from the bad guys.
They just didn't have their guns on them at the time. This time the bad guy won.
There have to be incidents like this to make up the numbers - it doesn't get to 32000 people per year killed by guns on its own you know.
There is already murmurings that they are going to get the nutters off the street - or not allow the insane to own guns.
What more can they do?
Don't blame guns though, never blame guns.
Quote: Stephen Goodlad @ 6th November 2017, 9:04 AMHow many times must you read that Yanks keep guns to protect themselves from the bad guys.
.
...and Washington. I'd really love to see an army of 20 loony urban warriors with their tuned scatterguns overcome the nuclear firepower of the "deep state".
Quote: Stephen Goodlad @ 6th November 2017, 9:04 AMGood grief Chappers, haven't you been listening? People kill - not guns.
Hallelujah, you've finally figured it out! Guns are not to blame for our murder problem, any more than trucks and knives are to blame for our/your terrorism problem.
Quote: Stephen Goodlad @ 6th November 2017, 9:04 AMHow many times must you read that Yanks keep guns to protect themselves from the bad guys.
They just didn't have their guns on them at the time.
If you've read the news reports, you've seen that a nearby resident stopped the carnage after picking up a rifle of his own and firing at the shooter, causing him to drop his weapon and flee. The resident and a young man passing by in a pickup truck then pursued the gunman at high speed while updating police with the vehicle's location. The shooter crashed his vehicle and was either shot by the armed resident or took his own life. We'll have to wait until the autopsy to know for sure. Either way, a bad man with a gun was stopped by a good man with a gun.
Quote: Stephen Goodlad @ 6th November 2017, 9:04 AMit doesn't get to 32000 people per year killed by guns on its own you know.
And you also know that that two-thirds of those are suicides and have no place in a discussion of gun violence.
Quote: Stephen Goodlad @ 6th November 2017, 9:04 AMThere is already murmurings that they are going to get the nutters off the street - or not allow the insane to own guns.
The insane are already expressly forbidden from owning, or even holding, a firearm. The shooter had also been convicted of domestic violence, which would also remove his right to possess a firearm. But if we were to enact just one more gun law it would certainly be the one that finally works, right?
Quote: Gordon Bennett @ 6th November 2017, 9:28 AMI'd really love to see an army of 20 loony urban warriors with their tuned scatterguns overcome the nuclear firepower of the "deep state".
A ragtag group of people who live in mud huts in Afghanistan have waged a successful war against the finest militaries in the world for the last 16 years, and they're essentially armed with little more than rifles and fertilizer-based homemade bombs.
Well as long as it's suicides and gangs and criminals making up the number - you don't have a gun problem then.
Those 500 shot in las Vegas and these recent 50 in Texas and maybe 30 in the next one in a month; are they just out to spoil the percentages?
Quote: Stephen Goodlad @ 6th November 2017, 9:57 AMWell as long as it's suicides and gangs and criminals making up the number - you don't have a gun problem then.
Correction: We don't have a gun problem that can be solved by additional legislation -- especially if that legislation only penalizes/inconveniences existing law-abiding gun owners (as is usually the case.)
I have a radical idea for new legislation.
From this point on all firearms will be illegal. The sale and use of any firearm will be against the law.
All guns to be handed in to a collection centre.
F**k the second amendment.
Let's be like the UK where no one owns a gun.
Projected result: 32.000 death down to 2000 in year 1
Quote: Stephen Goodlad @ 6th November 2017, 10:55 AMI have a radical idea for new legislation.
From this point on all firearms will be illegal. The sale and use of any firearm will be against the law.
All guns to be handed in to a collection centre.
F**k the second amendment.
Where to begin...
First of all, the Second Amendment can't just be ignored. It must be legally repealed by the American people, and they have shown little interest in doing so. Here's how you'd need to go about it:
The video is correct when it says that it would be an ugly, bloody affair. Australia's gun confiscation program only took in about 20% of their firearms, and they didn't even have that pesky Second Amendment to get in the way. If the government began kicking down doors across America in order to forcibly disarm the populace it could lead to a civil war. The last one we had killed more than 700,000 Americans in a country of 32 million. We're 10 times as large now, so the carnage could be a magnitude greater, although I have my doubts as to whether many cops or soldiers would participate in the effort, since both groups tend to be strong supporters of the Second Amendment.
Quote: Stephen Goodlad @ 6th November 2017, 10:55 AMLet's be like the UK where no one owns a gun.
The last I heard, there were about 2 million guns in the hands of private citizens in the UK.
Quote: Stephen Goodlad @ 6th November 2017, 10:55 AMProjected result: 32.000 death down to 2000 in year 1
Let's remember that the goal is to reduce the number of deaths, not the manner in which people die. A death is a death.
As I've said earlier, 2 out of 3 gun deaths are suicides. The reduction in gun suicides would be proportional to the success rate of the gun confiscation campaign, so maybe 20%. Those people would likely just swallow a handful of pills or hang themselves in their closets if their guns had been confiscated, so the net reduction in deaths would be close to zero.
The majority of our gun murders (about 8000 to 9000 per year) are related to gangs, the drug trade, and other street-level criminal activity. The perpetrators are generally people who are prohibited from purchasing or possessing firearms and we already have the ultimate punishment (the death penalty) on the books, so it is unlikely that your plan would put a dent in our murder numbers. But we would see a vibrant black market in firearms, similar to the thriving underground gun trade that began in Australia after their confiscation scene was enacted. Remember how successful Prohibition was in the United States nearly a hundred years ago? Instead of eliminating alcohol, a thriving black market sprung up and put people like Al Capone in power. Violence, crime and murder flourished.
My prediction for gun deaths at the end of Year One of government confiscation? At least 75,000.
Quote: DaButt @ 6th November 2017, 9:48 AMHallelujah, you've finally figured it out! Guns are not to blame for our murder problem, any more than trucks and knives are to blame for our/your terrorism problem.
Oh thank goodness this is a comedy web site!
Quote: Chappers @ 6th November 2017, 8:21 PM
Oh thank goodness this is a comedy web site!
The fact that...
1) There are nations with similarly large numbers of guns, but a lower murder rate, and
2) There are nations with draconian gun laws and few firearms but a much higher murder rate
...clearly proves my point.
Things may change with the advent of artificial intelligence and killer robots, but as of this moment every gun murder is committed by a human being who pulls the trigger. Guns don't just walk the streets and murder people by themselves.
Why do you pull dubious facts about other countries to defend your own.
We are talking about the USA and the constant mass murders.
Murders of children in this case - but it wasn't a gun that did it.
I can see that you are never going to be swayed, happy in your own skewed logic and blinkers.
What we call a gun nut.
So if it's not the guns that give America the huge murder rate, but the people, what you're saying is that Americans are just especially violent and murderous?
Quote: DaButt @ 6th November 2017, 3:15 PMThe majority of our gun murders (about 8000 to 9000 per year) are related to gangs, the drug trade, and other street-level criminal activity. The perpetrators are generally people who are prohibited from purchasing or possessing firearms and we already have the ultimate punishment (the death penalty) on the books, so it is unlikely that your plan would put a dent in our murder numbers. But we would see a vibrant black market in firearms, similar to the thriving underground gun trade that began in Australia after their confiscation scene was enacted. Remember how successful Prohibition was in the United States nearly a hundred years ago? Instead of eliminating alcohol, a thriving black market sprung up and put people like Al Capone in power. Violence, crime and murder flourished.
The Church attack is another sickening and vile event and my prayers are with you DaButt and everyone else affected by these events. I was reading an online story about it today which had a picture of a little girl eating a chicken nugget meal at a canteen and I could have cried over the senseless loss when I read she was one of the victims. Her brother survived but she died with her mum. You don't need to be close relatives or friends of people who lose their lives in these kinds of attacks to be deeply affected by it and the frequency seems to be increasing. I'm not going to start making accusations because that's pointless but something needs to change with the gun culture in America which now seems more unlikely than ever. Gun ownership is enshrined in something called the Second Ammendment so that would suggest there could be further ammendments to move with the times of society. The wording of it sounds very dated and more relevant when it was written during a time when law enforcement was still developing but in the modern age civilians should feel safe enough with law enforcement without needing guns as home protection. A guard dog and a few signs are probably more effective than having a handgun in the house. I may be missing the point there and for many perhaps they own guns to feel protected against law enforcement.
America is a vast place so not everyone lives close to emergency services and wouldn't want to have no home protection. Not just from humans but also wildlife which Brits arn't familiar with because all we get are foxes, badgers and squirrel's invading our gardens at night which is a lot different to coming face to face with a bear, boar or roaming dog. I would hate to have to kill an animal but if it was to protect human life it would have to be done.
I can understand why someone would feel safer with a gun in their home when watching videos like this. The attacker isn't carrying a gun but is still on a machete rampage. It's a slightly distressing video but the attacker survives and was later charged with attempted murder https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5bsAMSQ13bY
Ultimately I don't think anyone can understand gun ownership in America unless you have grown up there because it's not just about protection but also game hunting and sports shooting like the discipline at the Olympics so I can see that activity forging a deep bond with child and parent so they grow up to feel very passionate about firearms and the NRA which may then be incorrectly viewed by others as fanaticism. This is why I can't stand it when Piers 'Twathead' Morgan has these moments of fury on Breakfast TV when talking to pro gun campaigners because he's lived in America but wasn't born and brought up there. He has no meaninful or helpful opinions or suggestions other than the standard "BAN ALL GUNS" which is obviously never going to happen for the reasons DaButt points out. Banning something doesn't make it go away.