I read the news today oh boy! Page 1,951

Quote: Alfred J Kipper @ 2nd October 2017, 4:56 PM

It's a very tough problem to solve and ridiculously naïve to think a gun selling ban would have any major effect with 300m guns abroad in USA. I believe that's more guns than people.

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There are 325 million people and about 300 million guns, but nobody knows for sure. You're also right about the uselessness of a ban on sales. Then there's that pesky constitution...

Quote: Alfred J Kipper @ 2nd October 2017, 4:56 PM

I also believe nothing is unsolvable, obviously very tough decisions and laws will have to made and for that you need a largely collective will of the nation. That's USA's huge falldown for me, massacre after massacre they still won't budge on major restrictions.

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What restrictions would seem reasonable? Guns are already highly regulated and new laws are enacted almost daily, and that's why law-abiding gun owners are skeptical: they've seen their own rights infringed upon, while criminals are unaffected. The bad guys need to be punished, not the good guys.

Quote: Alfred J Kipper @ 2nd October 2017, 4:56 PM

The target should be ammo. Why not have a strong registration system for ammunition, a little bit like in militry

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There are a few reasons:

1) The same ammo that is used by hunters and hobbyists is used by criminals and spree killers. How do you tell them apart?

2) Spree killers get all of the press, but most shootings have a single victim. One box of ammo would last most criminals their entire "career" but hunters and hobbyists can go through thousands of rounds per month, so quotas or limits would be unreliable at best.

3) Ammo can be hard to find at times and it's very expensive, so people tend to buy it in bulk when they find a good price. So is the purchaser a bargain shopper or a mass murderer in waiting?

Quote: Alfred J Kipper @ 2nd October 2017, 4:56 PM

So make it illegal for anyone with a gun licence to buy a certain amount of rounds at a time. If they want them for hunting or target shooting then make them sign for them as such and promise not to keep them unlocked or to sell them on, if they did, then that would be a criminal offence. After a while I belie this may have a serious supply affect on the criminal use of guns.

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I see that you've added onto your original post, so I'll reply:

Quotas may sound like a good idea, but remember that there's always a quota-minus-one number that would be legal, so a bad guy could just slowly build up a stash. The Vegas shooter probably fired a couple of hundred rounds, and that might seem like a lot, but I fire that many in an average trip to the range. Most spree shooters only fire a dozen or so rounds.

And if you think 300 million guns is a lot, think of how many rounds of ammunition are stored with them. It's probably in the hundreds of billions of rounds. I think something like 10 billion rounds of ammunition are sold every year in the United States.

Yes post is now complete. I have problem either with this website or my pc, in ptting a full post out. I have to go back and edit every one to put in the missing words. It's very annoying.

Quote: DaButt @ 2nd October 2017, 5:20 PM

I think something like 10 billion rounds of ammunition are sold every year in the United States.

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And how much of that is regulated? If you sold only to registered non convicted gun owners and gun clubs and or members then you'd have an effective legal tab on the supply. From this you can eventually track and trace the illegal black market trade in ammo which is inevitably bound for criminal use. It's surely worth considering if a nation seriously wants to reduce gun crime and murders.

Quote: Alfred J Kipper @ 2nd October 2017, 5:46 PM

I have problem either with this website or my pc, in ptting a full post out. I have to go back and edit every one to put in the missing words. It's very annoying.

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If you use a wireless keyboard it could be a battery that's almost flat which happened to me and took me ages to work out it was the battery causing characters to be missed. Or if it's wired it could be a bad connection so try a different USB slot.

It's sickening what's happend and this morning the report was two dead which was then 20 a few hours later and then 50 and now 58. When I saw the report that it was two dead I thought that was the final number so it's unbelievably tragic. It's pure speculation by me but it sounds like the killer could have been brainwashed by the woman still being hunted.

I had never heard of Dan Bilzerian until today because he is making headlines with his dramatic video footage of the attack unfolding. The self proclaimed 'star' of Instagram films himself running away in terror and then manages to share it at lightening speed. I wont say what I think of him because it wouldn't be helpful and now is not the time.

Quote: Alfred J Kipper @ 2nd October 2017, 5:46 PM

And how much of that is regulated? If you sold only to registered non convicted gun owners and gun clubs and or members then you'd have an effective legal tab on the supply. From this you can eventually track and trace the illegal black market trade in ammo which is inevitably bound for criminal use. It's surely worth considering if a nation seriously wants to reduce gun crime and murders.

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It's already strongly regulated; the laws are essentially the same as they are for firearm sales. You must be 18 (21 for handgun ammo), not a convicted felon, not a domestic abuser, not an abuser of alcohol or drugs (including marijuana -- even in states where it's legal) and numerous other conditions. But just as criminals can't obtain a gun legally but manage to do so through theft or other illegal means, so too would they be able to obtain ammunition. It may sound like a good plan, but it simply wouldn't work.

Predictably, politicians are already gearing up for more useless legislation. The husband of the former congresswoman who was wounded in a mass shooting had this to say today:

Kelly listed a number of measures he said would help reduce the number of gun deaths each year, including laws to expand background checks, to ban people convicted of domestic violence from purchasing a firearm, to stiffen penalties for straw purchases, and to invest in research on the causes and effects of gun violence.

It's clear that Mr. Kelly isn't very well informed, since people convicted of domestic violence are already prohibited from possessing firearms, and background checks are already conducted prior to the sale of every new firearm. Straw purchases are already illegal and punishable by 10 years in prison, but lawmakers can feel free to increase the penalty, since they are criminals in the first place. As for research, go for it. Just make sure it's paid for by criminals and not legit gun owners.

Here's the ATF form that is filled out before every FBI background check when a new firearm is sold:

https://www.atf.gov/file/61446/download

Quote: Definitely Tarby @ 2nd October 2017, 8:41 PM

It's pure speculation by me but it sounds like the killer could have been brainwashed by the woman still being hunted.

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He'll probably turn out to be what FBI psychological profilers call an Injustice Collector. They are people who feel that they are the victims of a terrible injustice and refuse to let it go, burning with rage until they finally "get even" with the world and display the depths of their anger to the public.

Or maybe he'll be like the University of Texas sniper from the 60s who was suffering from an undiagnosed brain tumor.

Quote: Definitely Tarby @ 2nd October 2017, 8:41 PM

It's sickening what's happend and this morning the report was two dead which was then 20 a few hours later and then 50 and now 58. When I saw the report that it was two dead I thought that was the final number so it's unbelievably tragic. It's pure speculation by me but it sounds like the killer could have been brainwashed by the woman still being hunted.

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Yeah, why blame the guy who shot 600 people when you can blame his girlfriend.

I've read she's 'no longer a person of interest'. But I'm not sure how accurate that is yet.

Quote: zooo @ 2nd October 2017, 9:20 PM

I've read she's 'no longer a person of interest'. But I'm not sure how accurate that is yet.

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The last I heard, cops said they wanted to talk to her when she returns to the States. I'm sure they'd like to know if she had any knowledge of his plans.

Quote: DaButt @ 2nd October 2017, 8:58 PM

He'll probably turn out to be what FBI psychological profilers call an Injustice Collector. They are people who feel that they are the victims of a terrible injustice and refuse to let it go, burning with rage until they finally "get even" with the world and display the depths of their anger to the public.

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There was a massacre in the UK by someone called Michel Ryan who fitted exactly that profile. It happend 30 years ago this August and the wiki page breaks down everything that happened which I read though a few weeks ago. I was 10 at the time and his name has haunted me ever since. He even shot and killed his own mother when she tried to reason with him and later while talking to police negotiators he said he didn't mean to kill his mum and is quoted as saying before killing himself "Hungerford must be a bit of a mess. I wish I had stayed in bed."

I also read about the San Ysidro massacre and how the killer called a mental health line the day before but due to errors with how the call was handled he never got a call back. He felt failed by that and the next day went on the rampage in a McDonalds and even shot a crying infant at point blank range.

Quote: Definitely Tarby @ 2nd October 2017, 10:04 PM

I also read about the San Ysidro massacre

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That was the worst shooting in our history until someone shot up a Luby's cafeteria about 150 miles north of here. He killed 23 people with two pistols and it helped to usher in Texas' concealed handgun legislation. A woman watched both of her parents die in the restaurant and had a pistol in her vehicle, but didn't bring it inside because she was worried about breaking the law. She was later elected to the Texas House of Representatives.

Quote: DaButt @ 2nd October 2017, 4:23 PM

Guns are fun.

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There's your problem in a nutshell. You think that weapons designed for killing people are fun. That's f**king stupid.

Constitutions can be amended, when people like you stop thinking that guns are a fun human right. Make all gun and ammunition ownership/sales illegal, except for stringently monitored sales to registered hunters/law enforcers/security forces; legislate mandatory confiscation and destruction of existing guns/ammo; and see the number of gun deaths decline. Of course it won't happen because guns are fun! Yay! Let's look forward to more mass slaughters!

Quote: Definitely Tarby @ 2nd October 2017, 8:20 PM

If you use a wireless keyboard it could be a battery that's almost flat which happened to me and took me ages to work out it was the battery causing characters to be missed. Or if it's wired it could be a bad connection so try a different USB slot.

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Quote: Kenneth @ 3rd October 2017, 1:09 AM

There's your problem in a nutshell. You think that weapons designed for killing people are fun. That's f**king stupid.

Constitutions can be amended, when people like you stop thinking that guns are a fun human right. Make all gun and ammunition ownership/sales illegal, except for stringently monitored sales to registered hunters/law enforcers/security forces; legislate mandatory confiscation and destruction of existing guns/ammo; and see the number of gun deaths decline. Of course it won't happen because guns are fun! Yay! Let's look forward to more mass slaughters!

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You have to make a clear distinction betwen sportinguse of guns and military or police use and ofcourse criminal use. I've target ot and clay pigeonshot and it is indeed greatrerecreation or if you want, fun. I dot agreewith hunting onally but knowdddeng themto murdrmany people enjoy it immensely. For a while I did target archery which I found even more enjoyable, as it's a real skill to develop. These are pleasurable idddevms to use for recreation, omillions wouldn't do it. Soingmeone just needs to lop a way of stopping peopledevvelop a way using them to murder and maim people. Shouldn't be beyond human capability t way.

Quote: Kenneth @ 3rd October 2017, 1:09 AM

There's your problem in a nutshell. You think that weapons designed for killing people are fun. That's f**king stupid.

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No, it's the truth. Shooting is fun. I've never gone to the range and not seen all of the shooters smiling. Young, old, male, female, experienced shooter, or first-timer, they all have a great time.

Twenty years ago I worked on the copy desk of a small daily newspaper. It was my turn to choose the photo that would run on the national news page, so I chose this one:

Senator Charles Schumer is a big gun control advocate and he was pushing for a ban on so-called "assault weapons." He claimed that nobody used such firearms for sport or fun, so I ran his quote right under the photo of him shooting a fully automatic weapon with a big ol' grin on his face. Our editor was a dyed-in-the-wool Democrat and gun hater, but when he saw the photo he said, "Good one."

It's fun, but it it's also rather alien to our culture. Does the UK ban date back to 1968? It's a wide gap between US and UK.

Quote: Paul Wimsett @ 3rd October 2017, 3:13 PM

It's fun, but it it's also rather alien to our culture.

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Definitely, and that's fine with me. In this country, guns are no big deal. Own 'em if you'd like, or don't. Lock 'em in a safe, or stick one in your purse. They're just chunks of plastic and metal, not evil implements which will corrupt a person's soul and turn him/her into a maniacal killing machine with a single touch.

It gets tiresome when people who don't live here won't accept the fact that it's a complicated issue with no simple solution, especially ones that involve "Country X does it this way, so you should, too." And if their response is along the lines of "you're all a bunch of gun-obsessed madmen who couldn't care less if a school full of kids gets gunned down" then they've already lost the argument and proven that they don't have the slightest understanding of the subject matter.

Quote: DaButt @ 3rd October 2017, 2:43 PM

No, it's the truth. Shooting is fun. I've never gone to the range and not seen all of the shooters smiling. Young, old, male, female, experienced shooter, or first-timer, they all have a great time.

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Back in the late 70s an American friend of mine (from the local USAF base) persuaded me to go with him to the trap shooting range on the base to show me how it is done because he knew I hated guns with a passion and was hoping to change my mind.

It didn't and conversely made me even more convinced that it was not for me and that I should stay far away from them or anyone that owned one who insisted on showing it to me. Apart from that, I found it boring and akin to golf - a waste of time.

I know it can appear that I am glibly saying this just to justify something but honestly, guns frighten me and the further I am away from them the better.

Pointless and very, very dangerous hobby.