I read the news today oh boy! Page 1,950

Quote: zooo @ 2nd October 2017, 12:01 PM

Well they do, because countries who have stricter gun laws have much less gun crime.

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That's not necessarily cause and effect. Or even true, for that matter.

Brazil has two-thirds the population of the United States, and only 17 million firearms (versus 300 million in the U.S.) but they have about 5 times more gun murders than we do. They have very strict gun laws, too: registration, expensive licenses, no concealed carry, firearms must be kept at home, etc.

Gun laws have very little effect on gun crimes. Gun crimes are driven by gangs, drug traffickers and street crime. A hundred miles south of me in Mexico they have very strict gun laws, but their murder rate is three times higher than ours.

Quote: zooo @ 2nd October 2017, 12:01 PM

But anyway, shouldn't you be in bed?!

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Yeah. Insomnia.

Quote: DaButt @ 2nd October 2017, 12:37 PM

That's not necessarily cause and effect. Or even true, for that matter.

Brazil has two-thirds the population of the United States, and only 17 million firearms (versus 300 million in the U.S.) but they have about 5 times more gun murders than we do. They have very strict gun laws, too: registration, expensive licenses, no concealed carry, firearms must be kept at home, etc.

Gun laws have very little effect on gun crimes. Gun crimes are driven by gangs, drug traffickers and street crime. A hundred miles south of me in Mexico they have very strict gun laws, but their murder rate is three times higher than ours.

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And if you look at the UK, Canada, Europe, Japan, Australia, and so on they all have stricter gun laws and lower crime rates.
It's worth a try isn't it?

Yeah. Insomnia.

Boo.

Quote: Stephen Goodlad @ 2nd October 2017, 12:12 PM

Excuse me Dabutt but are you trying to compare this slaughter with other countries terrorist issues?

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Senseless slaughter is senseless slaughter.

Quote: Stephen Goodlad @ 2nd October 2017, 12:12 PM

It doesnt matter what horrors and crime gunmen do in the USA - people are more frightened of losing their right to bear arms

Don't you see the absurdity of it?

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I see the absurdity of the idea that more gun laws will improve things. I see the absurdity of the idea that we could somehow constitutionally remove more than 300 million weapons from the population. I see the absurdity of the idea that the criminals who already illegally possess/use firearms would suddenly decide to give them up if new laws were passed.

Again, people who want stricter gun laws aren't saying they want or expect all guns to be taken away. No one is even suggesting that. Also no one is suggesting that magically there would overnight never again be one single gun death.

There would just be fewer. I can't understand how anyone cannot be in favour of fewer needless deaths.

Quote: zooo @ 2nd October 2017, 12:42 PM

And if you look at the UK, Canada, Europe, Japan, Australia, and so on they all have stricter gun laws and lower crime rates.

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Do they have more than a million armed gang members like we do? I doubt it. I'm still waiting for someone to describe a workable plan to get criminals to give up their guns.

Quote: zooo @ 2nd October 2017, 12:42 PM

It's worth a try isn't it?

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It would be a miserable failure that would disarm honest citizens while leaving criminals armed to the teeth.

From what I've seen, more honest citizens are getting shot by the police than by gangs.
(Topical.)

Now go to sleep!

Quote: zooo @ 2nd October 2017, 12:15 PM

Stricter gun laws wouldn't even affect normal people like Dabutt anyway. Just the mad, unstable and/or criminals. So I've never understood why he's so against it.

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Look again at those first two sentences. They're absolutely, verifiably untrue. Jody Powell, President Carter's former press secretary wrote a letter to the Bill Clinton administration when it was considering tightening gun laws after the Columbine shootings. It was never meant for public consumption, but it's refreshing to see an anti-gun Democrat speak the truth:

As much as I hate to say it, the NRA is effective primarily because it is largely right when it claims that most gun control laws inconvenience and threaten the law-abiding while have little or no impact on violent crime or criminals.

Powell was right: just about every new gun law hinders the law-abiding citizen's right to bear arms, while having little or no impact on criminals. Take a look at a few proposed or enacted laws and see what I mean:

1) Heavy taxes on gun and ammunition purchases: The average criminal buys his guns on the street and probably fires less than 20 rounds during his "career." A shooting hobbyist buys his guns legally and can fire tens of thousands of rounds annually.

2) Mandatory gun registration: What criminal in his right mind would cooperate and register the illegal weapon that he possesses illegally? Law-abiding owners would comply and pay the price (literally and figuratively) for doing so.

3) Confiscation or mandatory turn-ins: What criminal would turn over his illegal firearm? Law-abiding gun owners would be disarmed and be forced to hand in guns worth hundreds or thousands of dollars apiece.

4) Waiting periods: There are no waiting periods when you steal a firearm or buy a gun on the streets. Only law-abiding citizens would be affected.

Quote: zooo @ 2nd October 2017, 12:51 PM

Again, people who want stricter gun laws aren't saying they want or expect all guns to be taken away. No one is even suggesting that. Also no one is suggesting that magically there would overnight never again be one single gun death.

There would just be fewer. I can't understand how anyone cannot be in favour of fewer needless deaths.

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With more than one firearm per citizen, how would additional laws result in fewer deaths? How exactly would that work? We already have the ultimate law - capital punishment - but it doesn't stop people from murdering. How would more gun laws lower gun crime? It just doesn't compute.

Quote: zooo @ 2nd October 2017, 1:06 PM

From what I've seen, more honest citizens are getting shot by the police than by gangs.

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The number of honest citizens killed by police is probably in the single digits annually. Gang killings number in the thousands every year.

Quote: zooo @ 2nd October 2017, 1:06 PM

Now go to sleep!

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I've tried. The sun is just coming up.

So there is absolutely nothing that can be done to get rid of guns. Nothing!
Citing other countries makes me laugh, ironically of course

'We only kill 30.000 - they kill more'

The truth is Americans get in a flap if they think they might lose their own precious guns.
How many people on this site DaButt do you think own a gun?
How many have fired a gun?
How many have seen a gun.?

The criminals here have guns and the police have guns.

The argument that if you remove guns from everybody, only the criminals have guns and everyone is unprotected is flawed.
But it is cited every time there is a mass shooting.

We accept that you will never pass a law to disarm everyone - and you must accept the next loony will fire into the crowd.
A bit like the wildebeest on the serengeti. Once the lions have made their kill the rest relax and are glad it was not them.
But the lions will be hungry again tomorrow.

I expect you're cherry picking and catastrophising a bit there.
Doing absolutely nothing is clearly not working. There are mass shootings every week. America looks like a chaotic third world country more and more every day.

Next time the democrats get into power I hope they learn one thing from Trump, that they can go ahead and make whatever laws they want, without giving a shit what the other side think. And then maybe they can make slight improvements on this ridiculous gun culture.

Quote: DaButt @ 2nd October 2017, 1:23 PM

I've tried. The sun is just coming up.

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Oh bugger.

2) Mandatory gun registration: What criminal in his right mind would cooperate and register the illegal weapon that he possesses illegally? Law-abiding owners would comply and pay the price (literally and figuratively) for doing so.

I think the point about mandatory registration (and that should include forensic photos of fired bullets) is that weapons stolen from law abiding citizens would be identifiable in criminals hands.

To know how effective this might be one would need an estimate of how many of the weapons used by criminals were stolen from citizens and the rate of thefts now.

Personally I can see no reason to object to such a procedure. For existing guns it would be fill in a form at a legal gun range, fire on forensic shot in a water tank or whatever, then the bullet and form are delivered to the police for entry into the database.

For new weapons such a procedure should be performed by the gun seller.

It's not really any different than registering cars, which are another form of lethal weapon.

Guns are dumb. Defending gun ownership and lax gun laws in the wake of a mass slaughter is disgusting.

Quote: Stephen Goodlad @ 2nd October 2017, 1:26 PM

So there is absolutely nothing that can be done to get rid of guns. Nothing!

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Some problems are unsolvable, but that will never stop anti-gun politicians from demanding that we "do something."

Give me a solution, if you think you can fix the problem. I'm waiting to hear it. Bonus points if it doesn't disarm law-abiding gun owners and is constitutional. So, what's your solution?

The only workable solution is going to upset people who already complain about the size of America's prison population. Criminals who are caught with illegal firearms should be jailed for even longer than they already are. Maybe for life, or maybe even the death penalty? Most states already have severe penalties for possessing a gun during the commission of a crime, but targeting the criminals who are actually killing people is the only solution.

Quote: Stephen Goodlad @ 2nd October 2017, 1:26 PM

Citing other countries makes me laugh, ironically of course

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Just as it makes me laugh when people say things like "But look at the UK, or Australia, or Japan." Apples and oranges, and a clear indicator that the person hasn't a clue about the realities of the situation.

Quote: Stephen Goodlad @ 2nd October 2017, 1:26 PM

'We only kill 30.000 - they kill more'

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More than 20,000 of those are suicides, so that figure has no place in an honest discussion of gun violence.

Quote: Stephen Goodlad @ 2nd October 2017, 1:26 PM

How many people on this site DaButt do you think own a gun?
How many have fired a gun?
How many have seen a gun.?

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I have no idea. I have only 3 personal data points when it comes to gun ownership in the UK:

1) I spent a few hours at a wonderful pub in Bath 3 years ago and four older gentlemen asked me if I owned any guns after they learned that I lived in Texas. I answered in the affirmative and two of them winked and said that they just might have a little something under their beds at home.

2) I had a few beers in Las Vegas several years ago and 2 former British army vets struck up a conversation about guns and lamented that they weren't able to own pistols back home.

3) The late, great Renegade Carpark's stance on guns was quite clear.

Quote: Stephen Goodlad @ 2nd October 2017, 1:26 PM

The argument that if you remove guns from everybody, only the criminals have guns and everyone is unprotected is flawed.

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Everyone is unprotected until armed police show up, and that will often prove to be a fatal delay. I'll consider getting rid of my guns once I have 24/7 armed bodyguards like the politicians who would like to see us disarmed.

Quote: Stephen Goodlad @ 2nd October 2017, 1:26 PM

you must accept the next loony will fire into the crowd.

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I accept that completely. As I said earlier, where there's a will, there's a way. I also accept that there are people who would rather not own firearms. I just don't want them to remove my ability to arm myself, if I choose to do so.

For what it's worth, I didn't grow up around guns and didn't buy my first firearm until I was nearly 50 years old and my kids were grown, although I've always been pro-gun rights, even before I joined the military. Now I have a 6-year-old grandson who owns his own rifle and is very, very careful with it. His parents have taught him well.

Quote: zooo @ 2nd October 2017, 1:29 PM

There are mass shootings every week.

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The overwhelming majority of them involve gangs and drug dealers, not random shooters, and certainly not NRA members or people with licenses to carry concealed handguns.

Quote: billwill @ 2nd October 2017, 1:32 PM

I think the point about mandatory registration (and that should include forensic photos of fired bullets) is that weapons stolen from law abiding citizens would be identifiable in criminals hands.

To know how effective this might be one would need an estimate of how many of the weapons used by criminals were stolen from citizens and the rate of thefts now.

Personally I can see no reason to object to such a procedure. For existing guns it would be fill in a form at a legal gun range, fire on forensic shot in a water tank or whatever, then the bullet and form are delivered to the police for entry into the database.

For new weapons such a procedure should be performed by the gun seller.

It's not really any different than registering cars, which are another form of lethal weapon.

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It would be as useless in preventing gun crimes/deaths as vehicle registration is in preventing traffic accidents/deaths. Police can already tell if a gun is stolen (already illegal) by checking the serial number, although many criminals grind it off (already illegal). Once a gun is used in a crime or fired at someone, a registration would be useless in stopping that illegal activity. The need is for a way to stop the activity before it takes place, and a registration would not do that.

I end my discussion here. You are blind and indoctrinated, there is no hope.
You seriously believe all the Brits you have met either have guns or want guns....

Quote: Kenneth @ 2nd October 2017, 3:30 PM

Guns are dumb.

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Guns are fun. People can be dumb, but guns can't.

Quote: Stephen Goodlad @ 2nd October 2017, 4:17 PM

You are blind and indoctrinated

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No, I am very intelligent, well-informed on the matter, and hopelessly practical. I'm also open-minded and sincerely interested in hearing your solution for the problem if you would care to share it.

Quote: Stephen Goodlad @ 2nd October 2017, 4:17 PM

You seriously believe all the Brits you have met either have guns or want guns....

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No, I've had 3 face-to-face conversations about guns with Brits: twice in the UK and once in the States, and they went exactly as I described.

EDIT: My daughter in L.A. just told me that several of her friends and coworkers were at the concert. They've all checked in, with the exception of her best friend. She's not responding to texts or phone calls. Hopefully she's just having phone issues.

EDIT #2: My daughter's friends are all ok. One hid in a drainpipe until cops rescued her.

Another terrible murder rampage by a nutter with guns in USA. Isis will also be delighted that someone else is doing their work for them. It's a very tough problem to solve and ridiculously naïve to think a gun selling ban would have any major effect with 300m guns abroad in USA. I believe that's more guns than people. I also believe nothing is unsolvable, obviously very tough decisions and laws will have to made and for that you need a largely collective will of the nation. That's USA's huge falldown for me, massacre after massacre they still won't budge on major gun law changes.

But here would be my solution at least to give it some serious analysis. It's far too late for gun restrictions, they swamp all states and most of society there. The target should be ammo. If you restrict the supply of ammunition to illegally held guns then you should have a good chance of limiting killings imo. Why not have a strong registration system for ammunition, a little bit like in military or police? So make it illegal for anyone with a gun licence to buy a certain amount of rounds at a time. If they want them for hunting or target shooting then make them sign for them as such and promise not to keep them unlocked or to sell them on, if they did, then that would be a criminal offence. After a while I believe this may have a serious supply affect on the criminal use of guns.

With no one with a criminal conviction allowed to purchase ammunition then black market ammo should soon dry up. Gun clubs and ranges would be made the only legal high volume buyers of private ammo.