Quote: Will Cam @ 21st June 2017, 9:59 PMMaggie
Frankie Boyle described May as Thatcher's final Horcrux.
Why does comedy lean to the left? Page 5
Quote: playfull @ 21st June 2017, 10:31 PMFrankie Boyle described May as Thatcher's final Horcrux.
A fantastic gag, but I'm sure he knew it was politically incredibly inaccurate. May's way to the left and way more authoritarian than Thatcher was.
Quote: Aaron @ 21st June 2017, 10:35 PMA fantastic gag, but I'm sure he knew it was politically incredibly inaccurate. May's way to the left and way more authoritarian than Thatcher was.
Nope the gag only works because of the similarities. Substitute any other politician and the gag does not work
Quote: playfull @ 21st June 2017, 10:43 PMNope the gag only works because of the similarities. Substitute any other politician and the gag does not work
The perceived similarities in the eyes of the ignorant, yes.
Quote: Aaron @ 21st June 2017, 10:35 PMA fantastic gag.
Yes. Despite their huge differences.
It works because of the common trope that they're both evil. And to some extent the notion that they're very similar. Doesn't mean that either is subjectively true, rather than a caricature.
What you say, Aaron, is very interesting and, of course, I only ask out interest and am in no way arguing here, or trying to outmaneuver you. It's an invigorating chat.
I applaud entrepreneurship as loudly as any Tory, so I guess we're can agree there. This very site is an example of it. But I also acknowledge that not everyone can be an entrepreneur, because then there would be no workers.
I also don't believe that people should see benefits as a lifestyle choice and have loads of kids in order to get child benefit, so I suppose we agree on that too.
This is looking pretty good so far!
The welfare system, though, is a safety net, but sadly disability or lack of work means many people fall into it.
Regarding inheritance task, I can see why it would be annoying for those who have to pay it, but I don't see why that should be scrapped at a time when the country clearly needs money. Seems counter-productive to me. I don't think a couple of years after a financial crash was the time to do it, though there was obviously a pressure there from Tory donors and wealthy politicians themselves.
Which brings me to the class divide. I can't shake the idea that the Tories hate the poor - though I do believe it's because they don't understand them, not because they're Bond villains.
I mean, you have rich kids going to private schools and then getting a good job through social connections, all the while believing that they are self-reliant, so they can't understand why the poor aren't the same way. The lack of understanding is obviously a big problem.
And if the Tories aren't willfully punishing the poor, they have a funny way of showing it:
They have hit 420,000 disabled people with the Bedroom Tax, many of whom used the the room in question to house their medical equipment or was otherwise used for their carers to sleep in. They have also cut the Employment Support Allowance, which they claimed would incentivize these people to work, despite the work and pensions select committee believing that the initiative will cause 500,000 new claimants in the next four years to be pushed into poverty and find it even more difficult to secure work.
Also, because the government want to hand tax cuts to the wealthy, they have also taken money from families in mourning, cut in-works benefits of the working poor, and brought in child welfare cuts that will plunge an additional 250,000 kids into poverty.
They have also made brutal cuts to mental health services. The DWP have also ordered its disability benefits assessors to discriminate against people with mental health conditions compared to those with physical problems. This, by the way, was subsequently ruled to be unlawful by the court.
Meanwhile, 50,000 disabled people have had their mobility scooters taken off them. The number of children in poverty has also been rising by 400,000 since 2010 to a shocking 4 million, while the Tories have also abolished the Child Poverty Unit.
According to the Institute for Fiscal Studies, poor families with children are the most affected. Soon, schools will see their worst funding cuts in decades, which has had teachers across the country up in arms. They have also scrapped housing benefit, thereby causing thousands of people aged between 18-21 to become homeless. And old people have also been affected: the amount of pensioners who live in poverty has risen by 300,000 in 2014 to 1.9million in 2016.
Meanwhile, we have food banks. I purchase food every fortnight for my local food bank. Over a million food parcels were handed out by the Trussell Trust last year. These aren't drop-in centers: you can't get food from food banks without authorization from medical professionals. So if there isn't a problem, why are so many people using them?
Then, of course, there's the NHS thing with Jeremy Hunt - probably the most hated man in the country and surely a walking billboard to vote Labour.
I don't like the grammar school idea either - causing an 11-year old to feel like an epic failure who has ruined his life is, in my view, child abuse.
Plus, the fox-hunting question, which to many is representative of the Tory's (perceived) ruthlessness and lack of empathy.
And while we're having this interesting conversation, I'd love to know why someone would be a fan of Thatcher. It's one of those things you'd love to ask, but don't because you don't want to seem confrontational. And, naturally, I don't mean to seem that way now. Also, how come you dislike Theresa May? She seems to be cut from the same cloth, to me.
All this, of course, I ask with politeness and in the interests of understanding the opposing view. I want to get my head around the whole thing for about ten years now. Sorry for such a long post, btw.
"Because I believe in both fiscal and personal responsibility, not recklessness. Hard work, not reliance on others. Personal freedoms, not buckling under the weight of the state."
Lots of people would be reliant on others, regardless of whether we have benefits or not.
Many people are too old, too young or not well enough to work.
Surely you can see this?
The defining Tory attribute is their complete inability to empathise.
It is sometimes at a cost, but sometimes a lack of empathy (or controlled empathy) is a driver for getting things done.
How does making people who are too old or too ill to work constitute "getting things done"?
Granted a lack of empathy may have value in the Army when you are required to do inhuman things and live with consequences. But when a country is not a war a lack of empathy is a serious liability. Consider Thatcher's disastrous Poll tax. Trump and Kim Wrong-un are current examples.
Empathy is the yellow brick road of comedy.
Quote: Dave @ 22nd June 2017, 12:09 AMThe welfare system, though, is a safety net, but sadly disability or lack of work means many people fall into it.
Completely agree. It's a good thing. But it needs to be constantly monitored and adjusted to reflect and serve modern society. We got to the point a few years ago where it was possible to claim more than the national average wage. That's no longer a safety net, but a gross abuse of public finances.
Quote: Dave @ 22nd June 2017, 12:09 AMRegarding inheritance task, I can see why it would be annoying for those who have to pay it, but I don't see why that should be scrapped at a time when the country clearly needs money. Seems counter-productive to me. I don't think a couple of years after a financial crash was the time to do it, though there was obviously a pressure there from Tory donors and wealthy politicians themselves.
I see the reasoning, and I agree tax cuts are difficult when the country needs money. I see it as a moral imperative that should be done whenever, whatever. Just think of the principle: you can't even die without the state taxing you for the luxury. Isn't that utterly shameful? You cannot even die in peace. Never mind that such tax is levied on assets that have already been taxed.
Plus, government has also drastically cut income taxes at the other end of the scale, so there are always changes being made.
(Have inheritance tax cuts actually been made? There were some proposals for some changes this year, but you're talking as if referring to the Camon/Clegg years?)
Quote: Dave @ 22nd June 2017, 12:09 AMWhich brings me to the class divide. I can't shake the idea that the Tories hate the poor - though I do believe it's because they don't understand them, not because they're Bond villains.
Conservatives hate the status of 'poor', not poor people. We want everyone to be well off and to have the best lives they can, for themselves and their families.
Quote: Dave @ 22nd June 2017, 12:09 AMI mean, you have rich kids going to private schools and then getting a good job through social connections, all the while believing that they are self-reliant, so they can't understand why the poor aren't the same way. The lack of understanding is obviously a big problem.
I think this is historically true, but there are now so many Conservative MPs - never mind local councillors, or voters! - who've had a very normal upbringing like you and me, that it is now completely outdated.
Quote: Dave @ 22nd June 2017, 12:09 AMThey have hit 420,000 disabled people with the Bedroom Tax, many of whom used the the room in question to house their medical equipment or was otherwise used for their carers to sleep in.
Labour introduced the "bedroom tax", let's not forget. The "bedroom tax" furore was in extending it from private rental to social housing. So, unless I'm very much mistaken, giving more actual money to councils and housing associations? I agree the hit against the disabled is unfortunate.
Quote: Dave @ 22nd June 2017, 12:09 AMAlso, because the government want to hand tax cuts to the wealthy, they have also taken money from families in mourning, cut in-works benefits of the working poor, and brought in child welfare cuts that will plunge an additional 250,000 kids into poverty.
Tax cuts to the wealthy have increased the overall tax take.
Not sure which policies you're specifically referring to with the rest, but two general points I'd make:
a) rebalancing welfare expenditure to sensible levels and benefits, after profligacy and over-commitment of previous governments;
b) sometimes changes result in short term pain before people adjust and long-term gain is seen. Regrettable, certainly, but reality. We can't keep on throwing more money at everything and everyone ad infinitum.
Quote: Dave @ 22nd June 2017, 12:09 AMThey have also made brutal cuts to mental health services. The DWP have also ordered its disability benefits assessors to discriminate against people with mental health conditions compared to those with physical problems. This, by the way, was subsequently ruled to be unlawful by the court.
Source? I don't recall this. Mental health is now a keystone of health provision: it got specific mention in the Queen's Speech yesterday. Perhaps these "brutal cuts" are just the left complaining about changes to the systems it introduced, not acknowledging the other half of the coin: new services, changes, reform.
Quote: Dave @ 22nd June 2017, 12:09 AMAccording to the Institute for Fiscal Studies, poor families with children are the most affected. Soon, schools will see their worst funding cuts in decades, which has had teachers across the country up in arms.
The reforms to school funding are meant to do almost the opposite, but I agree in their present state they seem pretty bonkers.
Quote: Dave @ 22nd June 2017, 12:09 AMThey have also scrapped housing benefit, thereby causing thousands of people aged between 18-21 to become homeless.
Not scrapped, but changed eligibility criteria. Do you have a source for your claim of "thousands" of 18-21s now being homeless?
Quote: Dave @ 22nd June 2017, 12:09 AMMeanwhile, we have food banks. I purchase food every fortnight for my local food bank. Over a million food parcels were handed out by the Trussell Trust last year. These aren't drop-in centers: you can't get food from food banks without authorization from medical professionals. So if there isn't a problem, why are so many people using them?
We've always had food banks. Formerly known as soup kitchens. Big difference now is, the Conservative Government has the heart to allow job centres to tell people they exist. Labour artificially kept usage down by restricting their visibility.
Quote: Dave @ 22nd June 2017, 12:09 AMI don't like the grammar school idea either - causing an 11-year old to feel like an epic failure who has ruined his life is, in my view, child abuse.
I live in a grammar school area. None of my friends who went to comprehensives were made to feel like this. In any case: that's a problem with the education world, branding it success or failure. It's not. It's simply distinguishing how a child's brain works and if they might benefit from a different type of education.
Quote: Dave @ 22nd June 2017, 12:09 AMAnd while we're having this interesting conversation, I'd love to know why someone would be a fan of Thatcher. It's one of those things you'd love to ask, but don't because you don't want to seem confrontational. And, naturally, I don't mean to seem that way now. Also, how come you dislike Theresa May? She seems to be cut from the same cloth, to me.
I don't really know where to start here. May is an appalling authoritarian. She has no charm, no ability to connect with the public, no political radar, no sense of public mood. (Thatcher suffered from these faults increasingly so as her time in office progressed, but not right from the start.) She is patrician and hectoring in the worst pre-Thatcherite post-war socialist-consensus tradition. And she wants to censor and regulate the internet, believing it to be both possible and effective.
I would urge you to watch this Channel 4 documentary about Thatcher, her personal beliefs and driving force.
Quote: Dave @ 22nd June 2017, 12:09 AMSorry for such a long post, btw.
Quite alright. :-)
Quote: Chris Hallam @ 22nd June 2017, 6:52 AM"Because I believe in both fiscal and personal responsibility, not recklessness. Hard work, not reliance on others. Personal freedoms, not buckling under the weight of the state."
Lots of people would be reliant on others, regardless of whether we have benefits or not.
Many people are too old, too young or not well enough to work.
Surely you can see this?
Yes, and that is where families, communities, and the welfare net should come into play. Not throwing money at everyone across the board.
Quote: beaky @ 22nd June 2017, 9:00 AMThe defining Tory attribute is their complete inability to empathise.
Quite the opposite. It's the ability to empathise and see through problems and try to address their root cause, rather than just throwing money around to alleviate the symptoms and make oneself feel better.
Selfish and bitter, socialism is the greatest evil the world has ever known. It does not care about people. It only allows its proponents to feel better.
Thank you for taking the time to explain your reasonings, Aaron, it has made very interesting reading. There are things in there I certainly agree with, though of course others not so much. As you said in a much earlier post, different politics means solving problems in different ways. There is sometimes cross-over, as we see in the things in which we agree on.
Mainly, I believe that some people need a helping hand to get back on their feet, particularly when there is no work to be had, so a bit of "throwing money" helps that, though it should not be a permanent solution, of course, only a temporary one. The disabled have clearly taken a major hit - with thousands dying within six weeks of being made to work - and though monitoring is obviously a good thing, prioritizing targets is not. Many such claimants are genuinely ill, as demonstrated by that the fact that 65% of PIP decisions are overturned on appeal.
The difference between food banks and soup kitchens is that the latter was mostly for the homeless. Food banks are visited by all sorts of people - even those who work, but whose wages have not come through yet, particularly during the period between PIP stopping and wages arriving. Most famously, even nurses are using them now, not least because their wages have dropped by 14%, during which time rent has gone up. The very existence of such places are an obvious indictment against the government.
I'll certainly see that Thatcher documentary. I just tried googling it, but without success. Do you know when it's on, at all?
Here are the sources you asked for:
Mental health services cuts: http://www.disabilitynewsservice.com/dwp-declares-business-as-usual-despite-appeal-court-ruling/
Housing benefit cuts can cause homelessness: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/housing-benefit-young-people-18-21-scrapped-universal-credit-exemptions-a7610581.html
Thanks for such a civil conversation.
Quote: Dave @ 22nd June 2017, 4:39 PMMainly, I believe that some people need a helping hand to get back on their feet, particularly when there is no work to be had, so a bit of "throwing money" helps that, though it should not be a permanent solution, of course, only a temporary one.
Absolutely.
Quote: Dave @ 22nd June 2017, 4:39 PMThe disabled have clearly taken a major hit - with thousands dying within six weeks of being made to work
Is there genuine evidence of this actually happening at scale? I've seen plenty of scaremongering reports, but nothing actually concrete and irrefutable.
Quote: Dave @ 22nd June 2017, 4:39 PMThe difference between food banks and soup kitchens is that the latter was mostly for the homeless. Food banks are visited by all sorts of people - even those who work, but whose wages have not come through yet, particularly during the period between PIP stopping and wages arriving. Most famously, even nurses are using them now, not least because their wages have dropped by 14%, during which time rent has gone up. The very existence of such places are an obvious indictment against the government.
I would argue the existence of such places is proof that the Government has not been nearly radical enough in its reforms, particularly in housing and other areas around the cost of living. They seem unable to see the distinctions between allowing a free market; restricting irresponsible corporatism and profiteering; and overbearing state interference. Thus they end up doing nothing, or far too little.
Quote: Dave @ 22nd June 2017, 4:39 PMI'll certainly see that Thatcher documentary. I just tried googling it, but without success. Do you know when it's on, at all?
It was broadcast by C4 back in 2013, shortly after her death. Doubt it will be on TV again any time soon, but it looks like it might be available on DVD. http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00D3JUIXE/comdeyguide-21/
Quote: Dave @ 22nd June 2017, 4:39 PMMental health services cuts: http://www.disabilitynewsservice.com/dwp-declares-business-as-usual-despite-appeal-court-ruling/
Interesting read, but very old and with little detail. From what I understand from the report though, it doesn't seem remotely unreasonable of the DWP to have continued a "business as usual" approach whilst the case was ongoing and the original tribunal had yet to report: that report would have given them direction of what exactly they were doing wrong and should change, no?
Quote: Dave @ 22nd June 2017, 4:39 PMHousing benefit cuts can cause homelessness: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/housing-benefit-young-people-18-21-scrapped-universal-credit-exemptions-a7610581.html
This is all future tense warnings of "could" etc.