Why does comedy lean to the left? Page 3

Quote: Chris Hallam @ 20th June 2017, 4:34 PM

"The Nazis were undoubtedly fascist, but there was nothing remotely right wing about them"

Apart from their fanatical sense of nationalistic pride, extreme patriotism, racism, hatred for weak and poor or minority groups, hostility to trade unions and socialist groups and love of militarism you mean?

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Those are not exclusively or inherently right-wing things.

Because of course, the Soviet Union/North Korea is noted for:
a) its far-right politics; or,
b) its militarism.

Both are also of course very well known for a subdued sense of national pride and patriotism, welcoming of outsiders, disabled, gays, etc etc.

Don't be silly, Chris.

No need to resort to abuse thank you!
Totalitarian regimes generally have many things in common. North Korea is not exactly left wing either is it?
And whatever the hell Hitler was, he clearly wasn't socialist!

Apologies, retracted and replaced.

We will have to disagree in the extreme on your other points.

Quote: Aaron @ 20th June 2017, 4:39 PM

Those are not exclusively or inherently right-wing things.
Because of course, the Soviet Union/North Korea is noted for:
a) its far-right politics; or,
b) its militarism.

Both are also of course very well known for a subdued sense of national pride and patriotism, welcoming of outsiders, disabled, gays, etc etc.

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Quote: Chris Hallam @ 20th June 2017, 5:26 PM

Totalitarian regimes generally have many things in common. North Korea is not exactly left wing either is it?
And whatever the hell Hitler was, he clearly wasn't socialist!

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All of which is precisely the point I made all those weeks ago:

Quote: Billy Bunter @ 29th May 2017, 11:05 AM

First of all, what is "right" and what is "left"? Was there much difference, for example, between Nazi Germany and the communist Soviet Union? Rather than two "wings", separated by a chasm, I see politics as more of a circle with so-called extreme right and so-called extreme left meeting together at the top.

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Quote: Chris Hallam @ 20th June 2017, 5:26 PM

No need to resort to abuse thank you!
Totalitarian regimes generally have many things in common. North Korea is not exactly left wing either is it?
And whatever the hell Hitler was, he clearly wasn't socialist!

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He was a National Socialist!

The name was a misleading ruse to attract socialist support before 1933.
In practice Hitler bitterly opposed socialist movements and trade unions. There was nothing remotely socialist about him. He had far more in common with Franco and Mussolini than Clement Attlee or Nye Bevan.

Imagine somebody who becomes more and more right wing. They might start off just thinking taxes should be lowered or feeling patriotic about Queen and country. But then would they become more and more passionate about supporting the army, putting out flags, they would start blaming immigrants and/or benefits claimants for everything...It's easy to see how they would end up being Nazis if they kept getting more and more right wing. The path is clear.
Am I saying all Tories are heading in this direction or that Tories and Nazis are the same? Of course not.
This is just what would happen if a person grew more and more right wing.
Now imagine someone becomes more and more left wing. They blame the rich for everything, read The Guardian, disregard national boundaries, start advocating revolution...I don't see how this inevitably leads to North Korea? Any leftist fire there burnt out a long time ago. And it certainly doesn't lead to Nazi Germany. I'm not saying North Korea is right wing either.
Clearly the political spectrum model does not really stand up in these situations.

Quote: Chris Hallam @ 21st June 2017, 8:34 AM

Clearly the political spectrum model does not really stand up in these situations.

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You appear to be only considering the horizontal axis, not the vertical. You are conflating very different things. Authoritarianism is not inherently right-wing, and liberalism is not inherently left-wing.

Fair enough. When is liberalism not left wing though? Any examples?

Quote: Chris Hallam @ 21st June 2017, 10:32 AM

Fair enough. When is liberalism not left wing though? Any examples?

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Me, for a start.

Libertarianism is, although borne of the left, now more often of the right.

The vast majority of the current Conservative Party, both members and politicians. Gay rights. Gay marriage. Divorce. Abortion. It'd probably be easier to answer what they're not socially liberal about. And I can't think of anything off the top of my head.

Liberal economics and regulation, not iron-fisted state control.

Isn't 'neoliberalism' the big bogeyman of the hard left?

liberal
adjective
1. willing to respect or accept behaviour or opinions different from one's own; open to new ideas.

Sounds more like the opposite of the left; certainly the opposite of the contemporary Labour Party, where anyone who does not agree slavishly with Mr Corbyn is a 'red Tory'/traitor/etc whose voice must be silenced.

Interesting. I don't think most Tories in parliament or elsewhere support gay marriage even now. It was more that Cameron was left wing on that issue. Most of his party voted against it.
I suspect most opponents of abortion are on the right too.
Well done to the Tories for supporting the right to divorce though! I've literally never met anyone who opposed it ever. But very tolerant of them anyway.
I've also never heard anyone use the expression "red Tory" until now either. Are the Right really open to new ideas? Is Trump? Or the press? Crush the saboteurs! Enemies of the people! The relentlessly negative Tory campaign over Labour's positive one?

Quote: Chris Hallam @ 21st June 2017, 11:29 AM

Interesting. I don't think most Tories in parliament or elsewhere support gay marriage even now. It was more that Cameron was left wing on that issue. Most of his party voted against it.

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Oh, they definitely do. There are undoubtedly many who disagree, but I don't know, nor have I ever met, any.

Quote: Chris Hallam @ 21st June 2017, 11:29 AM

I've also never heard anyone use the expression "red Tory" until now either.

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Really? It's a favourite call of the hard left against anyone who would have been considered a Brownite, Blairite, or 'Labour moderate'. Very well documented over the last 2 years.

Quote: Chris Hallam @ 21st June 2017, 11:29 AM

Are the Right really open to new ideas?

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Of course. You just admitted Cameron was more centrist than others, and posed that he persuaded his party to support ideas they don't otherwise believe in, so you rather answer yourself.

Quote: Chris Hallam @ 21st June 2017, 11:29 AM

Is Trump?

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Trump isn't. But Trump's not of the right. He's just a power-hungry cretin. (See also: https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/trumps-donation-history-shows-democratic-favoritism/2011/04/25/AFDUddtE_story.html)

Quote: Chris Hallam @ 21st June 2017, 11:29 AM

Or the press? Crush the saboteurs! Enemies of the people!

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Ever read a copy of the Guardian? Or the Mirror? They're more closed than the likes of the Times, Telegraph or Mail in my experience - and those headlines you quote are typical eye-catching tabloid fodder, not genuinely reflective of, well, anything. (And it worked, didn't it? You fell for it. It got your gander up. That's a tabloid's raison d'être.)

Quote: Chris Hallam @ 21st June 2017, 11:29 AM

The relentlessly negative Tory campaign over Labour's positive one?

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The recent General Election campaign was an aberration and unmitigated disaster; but Labour's message was jealous and vindictive, just as it always is, not positive. It is normally the Conservatives offering messages of hope and a better, positive future, whilst Labour always peddle fear*.

* Perhaps with the exception of 1997.

1. As I say, most Tories voted against gay marriage.
2. Trump is clearly on the right these days. What left wing measures has he enacted?
3.I don't agree about the press or the recent election. I doubt many people would.

Quote: Chris Hallam @ 21st June 2017, 11:29 AM

The relentlessly negative Tory campaign over Labour's positive one?

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I think for "negative" you mean "realistic" and for "positive" you mean "idealistic".

Much of Labour's proposals may well be laudable, depending on your point of view, but, in the capitalist society in which we all live, are ultimately unaffordable.

We all know what happened to the economy during the last three Labour governments (Wilson's "pound in your pocket", Healey's dash to the IMF & Liam Byrne's "there's no money left" note).

We all know what happened to the economy during the last three Labour governments (Wilson's "pound in your pocket", Healey's dash to the IMF & Liam Byrne's "there's no money left" note).
1. Let me see...Labour inherited a mess from the Tories in 1964. Their mistake (and to be fair, it was a mistake) was not to devalue straight away and blame it on the Tories. "Sorry to leave it such a mess old boy," was the outgoing Tory Chancellor's message to his Labour successor.
2. We didn't need to go to the IMF at all - it was a Treasury error. Look it up!
3. So what are we saying? The recession happened because Labour spent too much? It didn't and they didn't! I suspect you know this really.
What about the last three Tory governments?
`1. The UK brought to a strike bound shuddering halt by the Three Day Week.
2. The worst unemployment by far since the war. The Poll Tax. NHS and services wrecked. Dramatic surge in crime and homelessness. Sleaze. All ending in the biggest defeat by any party since 1945!
3. Austerity, more damage to our public services. The current coalition of chaos. And it's not over yet!