I read the news today oh boy! Page 1,928

Quote: DaButt @ 4th June 2017, 5:58 PM

Tens of thousands of Muslims have left good jobs and families behind to fight in Iraq and Syria and countless other countries.

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There are 1.5 billion Muslims so ten thousand equates to 0.00000067% of the Muslim population. Apply that percentage to the American population and you get just over 2. But more importantly, I don't know any Muslims that would say these fighters were true Muslims. If ISIS said they were all Americans would that make them so ?

Quote: Davida @ 8th June 2017, 2:52 AM

Does it really make sense to stigmatize, discriminate against, deport etc. Muslims who are not terrorists...........military intervention and new policy based in xenophobic thinking doesn't solve anything. Pretty sure it makes things measurably worse.

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If you remember the IRA initially had us believe their power struggle was due to the religious divisions between North and South, rather than about the wealth divide and power struggles. It came to an end once the wealth divided had narrowed to as close as it had ever been. Thatcher's hard line made it worse, and Blair's "lets talk" resolved it.

The solution now is not to alienate the Muslim community with prejudice, that is what ISIS are encouraging. How else can a tiny ISIS army defeat the massive world army, other than setting us against ourselves. So ironically the likes of Trump are helping them, with his hate mongering.

The solution is to work with the Muslim community to catch the enemy within. You will note from recent terrorist attacks, so many protagonist had been informed on by relatives or Mosque members. You do not get more committed to a cause that ratting on your own son. The recent failures are believed to be down to a lack of Policing resource, so we need to put more funding that way and keep kicking hate preachers (on both sides) off their perches.

Terrorists are running wild on the streets of London and the police encounter people like this???

Quote: Firkin @ 8th June 2017, 9:38 AM

There are 1.5 billion Muslims so ten thousand equates to 0.00000067% of the Muslim population. Apply that percentage to the American population and you get just over 2.

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I've already discussed the stuff about "most Muslims aren't terrorists" in detail, but your math is way off and needs to be corrected.

First of all, 10,000 out of 1.5 billion equals 0.00067%, so your figure understated the percentage by a factor of a thousand. If you look back at my original post you'll see that I didn't say there were 10,000 members of ISIS, but rather tens of thousands. Estimates of the number of ISIS fighters range from 50,000 to 250,000, so now your percentage was low by a factor of between 5,000 and 25,000. But wait, there's more. ISIS aren't the only players in the jihadi game. There's al Qaeda, Boko Haram and countless other groups.

This article says that there have been more than 3000 terrorism arrests in the UK since 2001, with 17.8% of the individuals convicted. That equates to 600 convictions. How many people could those 600 have killed? 19 hijackers killed 3000 Americans. A single suicide bomber killed 241 American servicemembers in Lebanon, and one of them was a friend of mine. A man killed 84 people with a truck in France a few months ago. Even a few determined jihadis could wreak havoc in western nations.

This poll shows that between 3% and 62% of Muslims believe that it's acceptable to use suicide bombers against civilians.

Add in the surprising large support for the implementation of Sharia law in the UK and Europe and the widespread condemnation of homosexuality and it's clear that there's a serious problem. It's not the end of the world and it's not as if it's impossible to reverse things, but it's something that needs to be addressed by all facets of society and the government.

Quote: Firkin @ 8th June 2017, 9:38 AM

How else can a tiny ISIS army defeat the massive world army

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There are only about 30 million military troops on the planet (and many of them are Muslims). So that means that the world's Muslims outnumber the number of military troops by 50 to 1 -- if only 2% of the world's Muslims decided to take up arms against the infidels we'd be on roughly even terms strength-wise.

Quote: Stephen Goodlad @ 8th June 2017, 10:00 AM

Terrorists are running wild on the streets of London and the police encounter people like this???

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You mean confused, overwhelmed, scared young people? I think that's a pretty normal reaction to finding out you're in a terrorist danger zone. And that the situation was handled well enough, it seems. Looks like the confusion/panic was sorted peacefully and sensibly, and in roughly 5 minutes time. Those police were just doing their job. Surely that group of panicked kids were less of a nuisance to deal with than your average drunken disorderly person trying to start a brawl outside a pub on any given night of the week. The stakes are higher in the case you posted, but are you implying that it's unreasonable that the police should have to deal with young Londoners who react to terrorist threats in anything but a calm and cooperative manner? Are we meant to feel bad for the police men and feel ashamed of our confused youth? That....almost kind of makes sense, but not quite. To me, anyway.

Quote: DaButt @ 8th June 2017, 1:40 PM

I've already discussed the stuff about "most Muslims aren't terrorists" in detail, but your math is way off and needs to be corrected.

First of all, 10,000 out of 1.5 billion equals 0.00067%, so your figure understated the percentage by a factor of a thousand. If you look back at my original post you'll see that I didn't say there were 10,000 members of ISIS, but rather tens of thousands. Estimates of the number of ISIS fighters range from 50,000 to 250,000, so now your percentage was low by a factor of between 5,000 and 25,000. But wait, there's more. ISIS aren't the only players in the jihadi game. There's al Qaeda, Boko Haram and countless other groups.

This article says that there have been more than 3000 terrorism arrests in the UK since 2001, with 17.8% of the individuals convicted. That equates to 600 convictions. How many people could those 600 have killed? 19 hijackers killed 3000 Americans. A single suicide bomber killed 241 American servicemembers in Lebanon, and one of them was a friend of mine. A man killed 84 people with a truck in France a few months ago. Even a few determined jihadis could wreak havoc in western nations.

This poll shows that between 3% and 62% of Muslims believe that it's acceptable to use suicide bombers against civilians.

Add in the surprising large support for the implementation of Sharia law in the UK and Europe and the widespread condemnation of homosexuality and it's clear that there's a serious problem. It's not the end of the world and it's not as if it's impossible to reverse things, but it's something that needs to be addressed by all facets of society and the government.

There are only about 30 million military troops on the planet (and many of them are Muslims). So that means that the world's Muslims outnumber the number of military troops by 50 to 1 -- if only 2% of the world's Muslims decided to take up arms against the infidels we'd be on roughly even terms strength-wise.

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In what circumstance would 2% of the world's muslims be moved to violence? By my maths (which could be wrong, but I'm going off the same pew research data you used) that's 30 million muslims. We're at an estimated 50-80,000 ISIS members worldwide now (I think), and yes, you're right to point out that there are other terrorist organizations in this world, but the only thing I can see pushing that 50-80,000 anywhere near the 30 million mark would be us (the west) starting another all out "war on terror" on their soil. Increased islamophobia, either institutionalized by the government, or fostered in public attitudes seems to me like something that will increase radicalization, increase the numbers of people who want to do harm to our civilians, and push that number more toward the 30 million mark (which I'm not sure is even a sensible marker, because number of troops doesn't exactly match up with proportion of damage done/deaths of civilians in any consistent way. My country has loads of nukes. We could kill hell of a lot of civilians with very few troops if we chose to. Let's all hope it never comes to that, but this numbers game doesn't add up to me.)

I am starting to wrap my head around the logic of your viewpoint on the issue, and it makes a kind of sense. But I don't think your preferred method of addressing the problem (as I understand it so far) would work. Didn't exactly pan out for us in Iraq and Afghanistan. Maybe you'd do it differently though and we could all live happily ever after.

Quote: Davida @ 8th June 2017, 3:17 PM

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You've dropped your cool Dickensian bit! Shame! Put it back you naughty girl.

Quote: Hercules Grytpype Thynne @ 8th June 2017, 11:58 PM

Quote: Davida @ 8th June 2017, 3:17 PM

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You've dropped your cool Dickensian bit! Shame! Put it back you naughty girl.

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What? Are you commenting on dropping my surname?

I'm on the hunt for a better paying job somewhere with better management, and have posted a fair amount of garbled manic nonsense about shenanigans at my workplace that might not be taken particularly well by potential employers (who love to snoop the internet for things on social media etc. of their applicants). I'm taking mysterious Mark (or Orange Mark as he is sometimes also known)'s lead and trying to be slightly more anonymous.

No comments on how the election is going? I guess it is 2:30am... I've just got home from work and haven't sorted through the news yet. No idea what's going on.

Quote: Davida @ 9th June 2017, 2:28 AM

No comments on how the election is going? I guess it is 2:30am... I've just got home from work and haven't sorted through the news yet. No idea what's going on.

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Dead sparrows, just £2.95 a bucket. Ánd a hung parliament.

F**k me what a choice. A demented ostrich with a gurning affliction or the strange man from the allotment who advovates a no chemicals policy and strangely has a loyal following, who fawn over his barren plot.

The Russians must be absolutely pissing themselves.

Did someone mention coalition of chaos?

Whenever I see the word 'hung' I always think of that scene from Blazing Saddles.

[Bart returns unexpectedly after being sentenced to death]
Charlie: They said you was hung.
Bart: And they was right.

The identities of the boy and girl who murdered a mum and her daughter as they slept by stabbing them in the throat in April 2016 were revealed today and it was the victims other daughter and her boyfriend. They look like two normal kids.

Quote: Davida @ 8th June 2017, 3:17 PM

Increased islamophobia, either institutionalized by the government, or fostered in public attitudes seems to me like something that will increase radicalization, increase the numbers of people who want to do harm to our civilians,

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Yes it's bound to but people are only human and some will inevitably react to losing innocent locals in acts of depraved butchery by supposed fellow Brits who despise all that we are. Even indigenous Brits, known for their stoicism in a crisis and phlegmatic nature will retaliate against continuous savagery and treat some muslims with suspicion. I'm not sure how you stop it without being draconian.

[quote name="Will Cam" post="1175480" date="9th June 2017, 9:42 AM"] A demented ostrich with a gurning afflictionquote]
Yes she is now but I'd have definitely given her one when she was younger, wish I could do pics. If you like a bit of posh then check them out.

Quote: DaButt @ 8th June 2017, 1:40 PM

This poll shows that between 3% and 62% of Muslims believe that it's acceptable to use suicide bombers against civilians.

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Not sure where you got this document Da Butt but you'd be best advised to draw no conclusions from it - certainly not the one quoted above. The 62% figure comes from Gazan Palestinians who are not involved in a religious conflict with Israel, the conflict is wholly secular. Of course like many arabs not all Palestinians are muslim, but the Palestinians are relatively irreligious - somewhat akin to C of E in the UK.

It is also impossible to transpose the violence that takes place in Israel and Palestine elsewhere in the world. A citizen of the US or the UK is not going to be killed by a Palestinian or an Israeli, in the same way that say the Japanese (Allies of the Nazis during WWII) were in no danger from the French Resistance.

The terrorist cells and extremists are a bit like the old Italian Mafia in the USA.
Every muslim knows they exist and where they are and what they are up to but are too afraid to speak up or actively report them for fear of their own safety. (they do use threats as a code of silence)
People assume the majority of Muslims must be a part of the terrorist ring or at least secretly condone it - but they don't.
Fear of reprisals make them keep their heads down and their gobs shut.