Quote: fopdoodle @ 22nd June 2016, 2:06 PM BSTI am in remain camp, as it seems so many in exit camp want out for wrong reasons, similar to those wanting independent Scotland.
But nevermind other people, what about you?
EU Referendum - In Or Out? Page 15
Quote: Aaron @ 22nd June 2016, 2:11 PM BSTBut nevermind other people, what about you?
The economic argument as presented by the leading economic newspaper in the UK: https://next.ft.com/content/0260242c-370b-11e6-9a05-82a9b15a8ee7
In summary, the UK had the lowest GDP growth of the G7 before joining and the fastest since joining.
The OECD assesses that the UK has the second lowest level of product market regulation among its members (i.e. 34 major world economies).
Our contribution to the EU is not £350m a week as stated by Boris, it's closer to £163m according to economists. I use to work with an Economist who advised Gordon Brown at number 11 - Brown and Boris are Politicians not economists. And now I'll get my coat.
Quote: Nick Nockerty @ 22nd June 2016, 8:27 PM BSTI use to work with an Economist who advised Gordon Brown at number 11
Quote: Nick Nockerty @ 22nd June 2016, 8:27 PM BSTOur contribution to the EU is not £350m a week as stated by Boris.../
That figure includes the rebate we currently get. It doesn't say much for the Brexiteers honesty/intelligence if they can't work out that we won't still get a rebate if we're not contributing.
The scary thing is this vote is meaningless.
Friday one of 3 things happen.
1 We stay in, nothing changes.
2 We vote out, Cameron resigns there's a leadership election. The new leader sets up a committee to discuss Brexit, but there are more important things to deal with. After 5 years people assume it was a techno band singing about piles.
3 We vote out, Cameron doesn't resign but negotiates a deal. Which changes nothing but the flavour of squash in the meetings discussing Europe.
This whole thing has been a big fake. To help the Conservatives to steal UKIP votes in the dying days of the 2015 election and claw on to power.
If you want change, join a party, stuff envelopes write carefully thought out letters to your local counsellor. Or sign petitions and go on marches.
Do something, just don't assume a meaningless choice shoved under your nose is empowering.
Quote: sootyj @ 23rd June 2016, 8:21 AM BSTThis whole thing has been a big fake. To help the Conservatives to steal UKIP votes in the dying days of the 2015 election and claw on to power.
I think that's what he'd hoped, but he's discovered the fake was itself fake, and now something might really happen.
Yes it did rather blow up in his face.
I can't blame Cameron like most of the current crop of Cons he is just obeying his conservative instinct to lower taxes and privatise everything.
It's Labour I despair of both the fauxTory Bitterites and the hopeless Corbyn dreamers.
Both have allowed Nige and elements of the Cons far right to form a sort of people's conservatism. Bitter, hateful and racist with no promises just an urge to destory. If they win the day it'll be a grim future.
I put a big fat 'X' in 'remain' box at 7am as I feel quite strongly that, similar to the Scottish independence vote - a lot of people wanting independence wanted it for the wrong reasons like I already mentioned. I felt that a lot of scots wanted to cut free as a result of what I call 'Braveheart syndrome'. Without even considering the pros and cons, some just wanted out so we are separated in order to carry an even bigger flag - but like a football team's colour, that scares me because it's division alone - by pitting one team, people, religion, country or whatever against another that causes all the destruction in the world.
As the late Jo Cox said . . . 'there's more that unites us than divides us' - a mantra that I embrace wholeheartedly - and that senseless crime swayed opinion in her favour - but even if in the long term, leaving is the best for the future of UK, as it may well be in 20 years' time, I am with Stephen Hawking on this for now, as he echoed my initial fears - and who can really argue with someone as intelligent and informed as him?
And like Alastair Campbell said - if the undecided's were nodding towards a 'leave', but thought it may be too much of a risk . . . don't take it.
But just realised since voting that most of those in exit camp are people I don't care for much. Boris has lost me too as has become another Trump figure as far as I'm concerned by tripping himself up all over the place and floundering over every foolish utterance . . .
And some of these people are also pretty arrogant and smug - and when you think about it, given all the information we don't have, voting 'out' is either incredibly stupid or incredibly egotistical. I mean, I just don't know enough to even consider voting 'out', so anyone who does must have a very high opinion of their own 'judgement' or are they simply delusional and not living in the real world?
I am humble enough to admit that I am ignorant enough to view the prospect of entering into something without being furnished with the full facts and possibilities (rather than sheer guesswork from fairyland) as too scary a risk, so I see it as russian roulette. But scaremongering and inaccurate 'facts' aside, what if the outcome of 'out' WAS worst case scenario? What if our little island DID become insignificant compared to competing continents and we had to lower our prices to maintain trading so cost of living soared? Could even descend into a civil war!
It just seems like, to me, that the exit campers are, in effect, potentially leading us all into the lion's mouth while saying it'll be okay because it's just had lunch. Not a risk any of the rest of us would really take willingly, so is also incredibly selfish if, say, the risk IS much higher to a regular blue collar Joe and the voter is sitting in their castle on their hill . . . am just convinced that the 'out' brigade comprises of people from one end of the spectrum or the other - either extremist patriotic morons (and possibly also fascist, with immigration being their main motive), or self absorbed elitists who exist in their own little protective bubble who don't care if the hoi polloi can afford to feed their kids, provided they themselves can still play polo at the weekend.
So given my provocative rant - I would like to read anyone's rantionale if they are pro-exit so I might understand 'why' more, as I still have an open mind to their opinion because despite listening intently to both sides for weeks now, perhaps I'm just missing something here.
Quote: Lee @ 23rd June 2016, 12:29 PM BSTThat's how I feel.
This is the only time I will express my opinion (or lack of it) on the matter, as I have the more important choice of what I'm having for tea tonight to consider.
Lee - 2016
I too still plan to eat the same thing for dinner regardless (hmm, pasta or beans on toast - always a dilemma).
And I am also cynical about whole charade - as for a start, why do we vote with pencil that can be rubbed out?
Some married couples are one being an innie and one an outie so are not voting at all either as cancel each other out - so non-voters make a statement which is just as relevant, despite being neither, in my view.
Hey thanks for not quoting the middle bit.
Quote: Lee @ 23rd June 2016, 12:51 PM BSTHey thanks for not quoting the middle bit.
Middle bit was totally relevant, but I was responding to specific points. Only you seem to have edited out now while they provided valid argument?
Quote: fopdoodle @ 23rd June 2016, 12:45 PM BSTAnd I am also cynical about whole charade - as for a start, why do we vote with pencil that can be rubbed out?
Who cares, the whole thing is just a transparent ploy to farm information on our voting choices. #They'reAllLizards
Quote: Nogget @ 23rd June 2016, 6:13 AM BSTIt doesn't say much for the Brexiteers honesty/intelligence if they can't work out that we won't still get a rebate if we're not contributing.
Boris Johnson has confessed to having written an alternative pro-EU column for The Daily Telegraph at the same time as penning his piece backing 'Brexit'. He'll probably laugh it off. Nigel Farage pulled out of his last TV debate ? What do they believe in ?
Quote: fopdoodle @ 23rd June 2016, 12:06 PM BSTmost of those in exit camp are people I don't care for much. Boris has lost me too as has become another Trump figure
Too true.
Where is Nick Griffin on all this? Or have I missed something else?!!