EU Referendum - In Or Out? Page 4

Quote: Nick Nockerty @ 26th January 2016, 7:23 PM GMT

Lending rates are based on risk. We're currently underwritten by the world's largest single market the EU. Of course this helps our credit rating.

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Again, I would argue we're mostly underwritten by the EU's much-hated "Anglo Saxon model" of finance (i.e. ours) rather than our membership of that particular club.

Quote: Nick Nockerty @ 26th January 2016, 7:23 PM GMT

Totally agree with your point about the Euro, but no one was forced to join.

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That's not quite true. Joining the euro is a condition of joining the EU. And under the Maastricht Treaty, the UK and Denmark had to get explicit opt-outs from joining. Yes Greece could have joined us, and/or refused to sign-up, but was either a realistic option for them? Probably not.

Quote: Nick Nockerty @ 26th January 2016, 7:23 PM GMT

I wholeheartedly agree with your point about corruption. But isn't that more to do with human nature and the types of people that gravitate towards power ?

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In part. But it's actively fostered by the massive, monolithic bureaucratic system of both governance and administration within the EU. It gives them more places to operate, and to hide, with even less accountability and scrutiny over what they do and how they spend our money.

Quote: Nick Nockerty @ 26th January 2016, 7:23 PM GMT

Greece wisely decided not to follow the route of devaluation. It has some nasty side effects, consider Germany just after the war.

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Nastier than what they've been experiencing for the past 2 or 3 years? (West) Germany post-WWII boomed. Look at them now. Has any kind of recovery in Greece begun yet? Or will it soon?

We would all be better off if we joined the nice countries closest to us. Ditch Benelux, Germany, Italy and all things to the East. Just France, the United Kingdom, Norway, Portugal, Ireland, Spain and Sweden - FUN PISS.

FUKN PISS.

Quote: DaButt @ 26th January 2016, 9:51 PM GMT

FUKN PISS.

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Very good.

I would put a thumbs up sign here but Aaron hasn't provided one.

Quote: Nogget @ 26th January 2016, 8:36 AM GMT

I want to be in an EU that actually sticks to the rules it makes.

Those people who will vote 'no', do you never travel in the EU? I imagine that would get more difficult and expensive if we were 'out'.

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We can travel to other countries so why should that make any difference?

Quote: Chappers @ 27th January 2016, 12:27 AM GMT

We can travel to other countries so why should that make any difference?

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Other countries often require a visa.

Imagine if we left the EU and tightened border controls, perhaps making certain eastern European countries* have visas to get to the UK; then it's possible we'd suffer some reciprocal action.

*Actually, forget eastern European countries, I wouldn't put it past the French to do it, the bastards.

Quote: Nogget @ 27th January 2016, 8:10 AM GMT

Other countries often require a visa.

Imagine if we left the EU and tightened border controls, perhaps making certain eastern European countries* have visas to get to the UK; then it's possible we'd suffer some reciprocal action.

*Actually, forget eastern European countries, I wouldn't put it past the French to do it, the bastards.

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I don't live in Europe, and I don't need a visa to visit. I doubt that citizens of the UK would be treated differently. Visas aren't really necessary when citizens travel between two friendly countries with reasonably reliable and robust law enforcement and terrorist databases.

The days of free travel between European nations aren't over just yet, but I suspect that passport checkpoints at border crossings will eventually be required. Although illegal immigrants are pretty good at finding their way across borders.

Quote: Nogget @ 27th January 2016, 8:10 AM GMT

Other countries often require a visa.

Imagine if we left the EU and tightened border controls, perhaps making certain eastern European countries* have visas to get to the UK; then it's possible we'd suffer some reciprocal action.

*Actually, forget eastern European countries, I wouldn't put it past the French to do it, the bastards.

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With country after country currently suspending Schengen either formally or informally, the notion of Brexit making travel more difficult is near void.

Quote: Aaron @ 26th January 2016, 8:17 PM GMT

Nastier than what they've been experiencing for the past 2 or 3 years? (West) Germany post-WWII boomed. Look at them now. Has any kind of recovery in Greece begun yet? Or will it soon?

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Germany had hyper inflation straight after the War, there was wild panic and hardship beyond the imagination of our current affluent generations (as devaluation would create). No one lends in that environment, instability and uncertainty kills trade faster than anything. It was intervention, allowing Germany to borrow, that stopped that. Greece on the other hand wanted perpetual hand outs, they refused to restructure their economy.

Many believe it was this forced modernisation of Germany and Japan that built a far more efficient manufacturing mechanism. The UK didn't invest and slowly we lost our manufacturing. We must take a long term view, because the other big players all do. China just switched the lights off our steel industry and it's part of their plan to control the natural resource markets. America also seeks to control and manipulate the debt market, with it's size. When the elephant sits down, time to leave the room - meaning ickle uk needs to pick an elephant to ride or get squashed. The Wallmart and Googles of this world gobble up the independents, if they so wish. Hence being part of the imperfect EU, trying to reform and improve it, is the lesser of the two evils.

Quote: Nick Nockerty @ 27th January 2016, 7:40 PM GMT

When the elephant sits down, time to leave the room - meaning ickle uk needs to pick an elephant to ride or get squashed. The Wallmart and Googles of this world gobble up the independents, if they so wish. Hence being part of the imperfect EU, trying to reform and improve it, is the lesser of the two evils.

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I can only say that I find that an incredibly depressing, defeatist and bleak attitude to take.

There's no reason the UK has to be "squashed". For centuries we've punched well above our weight, leading the world in everything from entrepreneurship to philanthropy, invention and industrialisation to scientific and medical research. Being part of the EU is only stopping us from realising our true potential on the global stage.

Quote: Aaron @ 27th January 2016, 8:20 PM GMT

I can only say that I find that an incredibly depressing, defeatist and bleak attitude to take.

There's no reason the UK has to be "squashed". For centuries we've punched well above our weight, leading the world in everything from entrepreneurship to philanthropy, invention and industrialisation to scientific and medical research. Being part of the EU is only stopping us from realising our true potential on the global stage.

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But we are a different sort of peoples now.

It is no coincidence that our pop music went downhill when we lost the Dad's Army spirit.

Quote: A Horseradish @ 27th January 2016, 8:59 PM GMT

But we are a different sort of peoples now.

It is no coincidence that our pop music went downhill when we lost the Dad's Army spirit.

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Our pop music is still the best in the world - except the Cowell stuff.

A couple of nice headlines for the EU today.

http://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-britain-eu-vat-idUKKCN0V52W8

http://www.politico.eu/article/europes-fake-forged-stolen-passport-epidemic-visa-free-travel-rights/

Quote: Aaron @ 28th January 2016, 1:37 PM GMT

http://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-britain-eu-vat-idUKKCN0V52W8

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The idea of someone in another country raising the taxes of a different country seems so ... foreign.

Quote: DaButt @ 28th January 2016, 3:24 PM GMT

The idea of someone in another country raising the taxes of a different country seems so ... foreign.

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And not even elected.