Quote: DaButt @ 5th January 2016, 10:31 PM GMTPoliticians: they're liars.
You don't say!
I read the news today oh boy! Page 1,788
Quote: DaButt @ 5th January 2016, 10:31 PM GMTEvery year they ban a few more. It's Death by 1000 Cuts.
Anti-gun politicians lie through their teeth when they say that they don't want to do away with the second amendment. If they had it their way they'd limit us to one single-shot black powder derringer with a limit of one round of ammunition and a 15-year waiting period and they'd swear that they were staunch supporters of the right to bear arms.
Politicians: they're liars.
What about the pro-gun ones?
Quote: zooo @ 5th January 2016, 10:38 PM GMTWhat about the pro-gun ones?
They're liars, but they don't lie about not wanting to take our guns away.
I've said it before but I'll say it again, with revisions for recent information that I have found.
Where guns are concerned the citizens of USA have a "tiger by the tail" and they can't let go.
It would be a logistical nightmare to try to ban or reduce having guns in the USA.
In the case of most countries there were not that many guns around, so banning and collecting by an amnesty was possible, so not many were left around for criminals to obtain.
But there are so many guns in the USA that vast numbers would be mislaid or deliberately hidden not surrendered, so it would indeed end up (as many law-abiding USA citizens believe) with far too many guns in the hand of criminals and insufficient lawful guns (police) to counteract them.
The original "right to bear arms" was, I understand, so that the citizens could form a militia to overturn the Government if the Goverment turned bad, but the way it has evolved is now like "holding a tiger by its tail." There is no easy solution.
As with all big problems the only way to solve them is one tiny bit at a time (like eating an elephant)
One possible solution advocated for the accidental shootings (especially by children) and theft of legal weapons, was that all new guns should be keyed such that they recognise the owner by palm-print or by a wireless dongle worn as a wristwatch or badge so that the gun would not fire if stolen or wrested from the owner. Gradually the old guns would get replaced by the 'safer' ones. Little kids would not be able to accidentally shoot friends or family.
Unfortunately in a misguided attempt to encourage manufacturers to create smart guns by 'forcing' future sales; the state of New Jersey passed a law which said that once Smart Gun Technology was proven (how proven was left vague) all new guns sold in New Jersey would have to be smart guns.
This law has drastically backfired.
The NRA (National Rifle Association) oppose these new guns as the technology is too raw (in their opinion) and they fear that the NewJersey mandate would be enacted to the detriment of gun relibility. NRA still has the fear of a bad government and want to continue to have the capability of revolt, without fearing that the government forces (police) might have the power to disable all the citizens guns by a jamming device or hidden back-door coding in the new guns.
NRA claim that they don't oppose the actual introduction of such guns only stupid mandates like the NewJersey one and in any case that the existing Smart Gun (ony one manufacturer has got into production) is too unrelibale and also appears to contain a remote wireless disable function.
NRA tested the Armatix iP1 Smart Gun http://www.americas1stfreedom.org/articles/2015/11/12/exclusive-we-test-the-armatix-ip1-the-not-so-smart-gun/ and found it fiddly to activate (12 seconds) and unreliable in firing:
Does the Armatix operate perfectly? Well, no; we found it to be troubling at best. NRA's tests, conducted with staffers trained by Armatix, found a number of very serious problems:
The Armatix pistol initially required a full 20 minutes to pair with the watch, even with the aid of an IT pro trained in its use. Without pairing, the Armatix functions like any other handgun, capable of being fired by anyone.
Once paired, a "cold start" still requires a minimum of seven push-button commands and a duration of 12 seconds before the gun can be fired.
While the gun holds a maximum of 11 rounds (10+1), the best our experts could manage was nine consecutive rounds without a failure to fire (and that only once). Three or four misfires per magazine were common, despite using various brands of ammunition.
Although the Armatix has a decent single-action trigger, it has the worst double-action trigger we've ever tested, requiring more force than any other pistol we've fired.
The pistol must be within 10 inches of the watch during "start up." This slows and complicates the use of the pistol if one hand is injured or otherwise unavailable.
The design of the Armatix's hammer prevents it from being safely thumbed forward.
All this malfunction comes at a high price: At $1,798 ($1,399 for the base pistol and another $399 for the enabling watch), the Armatix is a more than five times the cost of other common .22s, like Walther's excellent P22 ($319) or Browning's tried-and-true Buckmark ($349), and four and a half times that of Smith & Wesson's M&P22 polymer semi-auto ($379) or Ruger's SR22 ($379). It's also more than three times the cost of pistols like Glocks and Smith & Wesson M&Ps made in true self-defence calibers
Note that: Three or four misfires per magazine were common, despite using various brands of ammunition.
And yet the manufacturer conducted tests with a quarter million rounds! http://fortune.com/2015/04/22/smart-guns-theyre-ready-are-we/
No standards body, like Underwriters Lab, certifies the reliability of civilian guns. California and Massachusetts do require that a firearm, to be sold there, pass a shooting test. But they ask only that it fire 600 rounds with no more than six failures.
Mauch says the de facto industry norm for civilian handguns is around 5,000 rounds with no more than 50 failures. But at H&K and Armatix, he claims, he has hewed to a higher standard: no more than 10 failures in 10,000 firings. "We tested the iP1 with more than a quarter million rounds," he says. "You can use it in rain, dust, and mud."
The iP1 takes two AAA batteries, which will power about 5,000 firings, according to Armatix. An indicator light begins flashing when the batteries still have one-third of their life remaining -- i.e., more than 1,000 shots. The watch takes a common button battery, and a watch-face icon monitors its depletion. If the battery is allowed to run out, the gun will not operate.
The manufacturers tests results are the opposite of the NRA tests, but then I expect the "MRDA" (Mandy-Rice-Davies) principle applies to both.
To sell, smart guns do not have to be 100% relible (no gun ever is) but it has to be more relible than the de facto industry norm for civilian handguns which is said to be around 5,000 rounds with no more than 50 failures. 1 in a 100 misfires?
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However requiring a fiddly procedure to pair a gun with its activator (a watch in this case) is an absurd design, they should be paired at the factory and purchased together like the RFID keys of motorcars. Furthermore the mechanism to enable the gun to fire should activate almost instantly (say less than a half second) when the activator come in range and that range should allow either hand to fire the gun, 10 inches range is too short. Having a timeout of 8 hours on the activation is also silly. I means that if a burglar comes at dawn there is a high robability that the householder's gun will not fire until he has pressed the 7 keys in the right order. Nope, that timeout is one safety-precaution too far. The gun and actvator need to be permanently paired and activated only by their near proximity.
The gun has to be capable of being taken from a glove locker and fired at a car jacker before the baddie realises that the driver has a gun; a 12 second delay makes it useless.
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As said above the gun problems of the USA need to be clearly identified and then tackled one by one. The Smart gun 'solution' (assuming a sensible reliable smart gun), only tackles a few of those issues, notable the accidental shootings done by children and the shooting of cops with their own weapons after they have been wrested from them.
(In 2010, 62 children, age 14 or younger, died in gun-related accidents, including 25 under the age of 5, according to the National Safety Council.)
Additionally, the hope is that smart guns could reduce the toll of murdered police officers, killed when their service revolvers are wrested away from them. (From 2004 to 2013, according to FBI statistics, 33 police officers were murdered with their own weapons.)
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Other solutions would need to be found for other problems such as the School Shootings; possibly that if an area is going to be declared gun-free then the relevant people have to make damn sure that it really is gun-free by fencing it in and using Airport-style metal and Xray detectors at the entrance.
Um - I haven't got time to read that.
Quote: billwill @ 5th January 2016, 11:26 PM GMTOther solutions would need to be found for other problems such as the School Shootings; possibly that if an area is going to be declared gun-free then the relevant people have to make damn sure that it really is gun-free by fencing it in and using Airport-style metal and Xray detectors at the entrance.
If the bad guy shoots the person manning the detector then it's all moot. If I remember correctly, the staff locked the Sandy Hook shooter out, so he just shot out the door and walked in and killed them before turning his gun on the 6-year-olds.
I agree that it's an almost insurmountable problem in this country, but mainly because most attempts at restrictions and new legislation target law-abiding gun owners and don't affect street criminals in any meaningful way and the voters are well aware of it. If the president had announced a plan to put another 500,000 cops on the street to address our real gun problem (gangs, drugs and street crime) he would have been applauded by virtually everyone. But by demonizing the NRA and essentially accusing anyone who isn't in favor of more (useless) gun laws of being complicit in the murder of children, he's just driving the wedge deeper. But I think it's all part of the plan, since as long as he has the nation arguing over gun control he won't have to answer the tough questions about the economy, the national debt, numerous conflicts around the world, etc.
Looks like the North Koreans have conducted a successful hydrogen bomb test. It's a good thing they don't have an advanced missile program or a history of selling their wares on the open market...
http://www.cnn.com/2016/01/05/asia/north-korea-seismic-event/index.html
Oh dear, but it does seem they are only using it as a deterrent thank heavens.
Quote: Chappers @ 5th January 2016, 11:41 PM GMTUm - I haven't got time to read that.
If you can't be bothered to read that summary, that disqualifies you from commenting on american guns.
Quote: billwill @ 6th January 2016, 8:24 AM GMTIf you can't be bothered to read that summary, that disqualifies you from commenting on american guns.
Summary? Only if the facts were twenty pages long!
Quote: billwill @ 5th January 2016, 11:26 PM GMTThe manufacturers tests results are the opposite of the NRA tests, but then I expect the "MRDA" (Mandy-Rice-Davies) principle applies to both.
Is that a joke for all teenagers round here?
Indoctrination of the second amendment into all/most Americans is as powerful as any religion.
They can't see past it.
NO matter how many people are shot and killed daily the same mantra is quoted.
I don't know the exact figures but something like 300 people walking around today, enjoying life, having a laugh and working and seeing family will be laid dead in a mortuary tomorrow with holes blown through their bodies. The absolute end of their life on this planet....and that's just tomorrow.
'bad guys,,,,criminals,,,,bad government,,, protect myself yady f**king yada.
Quote: Stephen Goodlad @ 6th January 2016, 3:07 PM GMTI don't know the exact figures but something like 300 people walking around today, enjoying life, having a laugh and working and seeing family will be laid dead in a mortuary tomorrow with holes blown through their bodies.
Unsurprisingly, you're way off the mark.
The actual figures are more like this:
89 total deaths per day
66 suicides
22 homicides
1 accident
With 65% of gun deaths being suicides, your remark about enjoying life and having a laugh rings hollow; they were likely in agony before they pulled the trigger. Suicides have no place in discussions of gun violence, as suicide is a basic human right. It is also very much a cultural issue: Japan's suicide rate is triple the UK's and both nations have extremely tough firearm laws.
So that brings us to 22 homicide victims, but at least half of them were involved in gangs and/or drug trafficking and street crime and the majority of the shooters were already forbidden to own firearms. They are also subject to the death penalty, but if that doesn't stop them from murdering people we're supposed to believe that new gun laws will?
So instead of addressing the real problems of gangs, drugs, street crime and police shortages, our politicians want to disarm the more than 100 million Americans who own firearms safely and legally. Brilliant idea.
But surely it's like health and safety?
It's about acceptable risk. You can't prevent every building fire, most fire extinguishers don't work properly.
But if you lower the risk, have well marked fire escapes that are clear and smoke detectors.
Then you reduce the number of lethal fires and avoid the deaths than can be avoided.
Where as with guns no you can't prevent every shooting. But maybe you can restrict it to people who actually have to make an effort to get a gun, for whom there aren't any sly tricks to getting them. And when they do get them are more likely to be clobbered by some hero because they had to reload more often? Perhaps I dunno especially responsible citizens can apply to buy fancier guns that hold more bullets so can be more likely to out shoot the gun man?
I dunno it's not just deaths or injuries that are the problem. It's kids learning to duck and cover under desks in the 21st century.
Some other facts to chew on:
Poisoning by drugs is by far the leading cause of injury death in the United States, surpassing vehicle accidents and gun deaths.
121 total drug deaths per day
98 accidental overdoses
16 suicides
7 unknown circumstances
Those figures dwarf gun deaths, but where is the outrage and sense of urgency from the White House? Why isn't a tearful president standing in front of the nation with the families of drug overdose victims? Why aren't outraged Europeans demanding the immediate escalation of the war on drugs in America?
and what percentage dead from lack of health insurance?
It's not about avodiding every avoidable death or bacon and booze would be banned before guns
It;s about avoding uneccesary deaths where possible and the associated anxiety.