I read the news today oh boy! Page 1,745

Quote: sootyj @ 23rd June 2015, 7:46 AM BST

DaButt that's a dangerous sentiment and yet another one of the pretty horrid ideas the NRA like.

Control and fear the mentally ill they might get guns, not control guns they might get into the hands of dangerous people.

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It's not a sentiment, it's a fact that most rampage killers are mentally ill. I never said anything about fearing or controlling the mentally ill members of society. I think I made my point very clearly when I said that not all mentally ill people are potential rampage killers, but most rampage killers are mentally ill. That's not a damnation in any sense of the word.

Quote: sootyj @ 23rd June 2015, 7:46 AM BST

As it is when you described your application for a concealed fire arm's license, it seemed to be the model for a sensible ownership system. I'm not sure why you wouldn't want it spread further?

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What am I not wanting to spread? The Texas CHL application is very similar to the ATF form that everyone fills out when they buy a firearm in the U.S., with provisions for denial based upon citizenship, criminal history, mental health history, domestic abuse history, drug abuse, etc.

The form can be found here: https://www.atf.gov/file/61446/download

Quote: Nogget @ 23rd June 2015, 9:03 AM BST

I could accept that bringing in gun control now might not be the best solution, but to argue that the existing problem is not linked to the availability of guns is disingenuous, and any attempts to manipulate the homicide figures by distancing oneself from the horrors of gang violence is both statistically dubious and frankly heartless; they are your fellow Americans, whether you like it or not!

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Actually, a lot of them aren't American citizens. But I feel very comfortable distancing myself from gangs and drug dealers because they might as well be on another planet. They have nothing to do with my life. The violence in our inner cities is heartbreaking, but until our political and social leaders solve the problem then I'm not inclined to support gun control measures that only target law abiding citizens. Bodies are piling up in the president's back yards in Washington, DC, and Chicago, but he's more concerned about hawking gun control and decrying race relations because a single white gunman went on a relatively rare shooting spree.

Quote: Stephen Goodlad @ 23rd June 2015, 9:35 AM BST

That equates to about 300 million guns (staggering to me)

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It's actually more than that.

Quote: Stephen Goodlad @ 23rd June 2015, 9:35 AM BST

And each year about 30 thousands are used to kill someone

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And 23,000 of them are suicides, so they don't belong in the murder figures.

So let's say there are 8000 firearm murders per year from a pool of 300,000,000 firearms. That's one murder for every 37,500 firearms. Now compare it to the United States' stats for traffic deaths: one death for every 7,775 vehicles. The figure for the UK is one death for every 20,400 vehicles. So you're 5 times safer with a firearm in the U.S. than riding in a car and almost twice as safe as riding in a car (on the wrong side of the road) in the UK.

It wasn't the form it was the courses and tests you had to pass.

I suspect if someone on that course had been a bit fishy, they'd have been fished out.

Quote: sootyj @ 23rd June 2015, 5:39 PM BST

It wasn't the form it was the courses and tests you had to pass.

I suspect if someone on that course had been a bit fishy, they'd have been fished out.

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If someone was acting like a raving lunatic, yeah, but I doubt that happens very often.

To be honest, the written test was a piece of cake and the instruction mainly covered the laws about concealed carry. Most of it was just common sense. The qualification test at the range proved that we could load, fire and unload our weapons safely, but it wasn't something that anyone with a little shooting experience would have a difficult time passing. Most self-defence shootings take place at a range of less than 10 feet, so marksmanship isn't all that important.

I just read that London is having some sort of drop-off box program for knives to reduce knife crime. I carry this little fella everywhere I go and I've yet to stab anyone with it. Although I did skin a couple of rabbits and a deer with it about a year ago and many an Amazon box has been disemboweled, too.

Just heard who our Minister for Immigration is. James Brokenshire. How appropriate.

It's complex the UK absolutely does not have the right model.

The number of people carrying knives and using them is eye watering.

The government just scaled back a stop and search campaign on buses in major cities, due to cost.

And the murder/assault rate spiked.

Given the choice I'd like some of those idiots to be thinking maybe I'll get shot?

Quote: DaButt @ 23rd June 2015, 6:27 PM BST

I carry this little fella everywhere I go and I've yet to stab anyone with it.

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That's enough about your little fella !

The fact remains that the vast majority of gun related murders in the UK are believed to be gangland killings which tend to be kept within those communities (e.g. the Yardies etc...). This is self cleansing in a way. But in the UK this figure only runs at around 40 people per year: http://www.citizensreportuk.org/reports/murders-fatal-violence-uk.html

You simply can't get as far on a killing spree if all you have is a knife. Also the criminal fraternity in this country knows that if they bring a gun on a job, the penalties are sky high by comparison. So it is very rare, hence why it's not standard issue to the police. This all cuts down on mistakes that cost lives.

But if you check out how many gun related deaths due to burglary there are in America or police/homeowner mistaken killings compared to the UK and you'll see an immediate benefit of banning all fire weapons. Burglars will take a loaded fire arm if they think the owners may have one. Both are at risk.

It's also telling that America is pretty much the only first world country that gives such free access to gun ownership.

Quote: Nick Nockerty @ 24th June 2015, 2:20 PM BST

You simply can't get as far on a killing spree if all you have is a knife.

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Again, spree killings are a rarity and the vast majority of our murders have a single victim. Anyway, your assertion is not always true.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osaka_school_massacre

It all depends on the victims and the surroundings. In the Sandy Hook school shootings, the victims were 6-year-old kids. They wouldn't have stood a chance against an attacker with a knife.

Quote: Nick Nockerty @ 24th June 2015, 2:20 PM BST

Also the criminal fraternity in this country knows that if they bring a gun on a job, the penalties are sky high by comparison

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We also have very severe penalties for armed offences, but they don't seem to deter criminals. Here's the law for Florida:

Quote: Nick Nockerty @ 24th June 2015, 2:20 PM BST

But if you check out how many gun related deaths due to burglary there are in America or police/homeowner mistaken killings compared to the UK and you'll see an immediate benefit of banning all fire weapons.

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Again, I ask for a workable plan for removing those weapons. Explain how it can be done.

Quote: Nick Nockerty @ 24th June 2015, 2:20 PM BST

It's also telling that America is pretty much the only first world country that gives such free access to gun ownership.

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It's a right guaranteed under the constitution and I'd hate to see my rights infringed upon because criminals insist upon acting like criminals.

Tough sentences in issolation are rarely a hit. I remember California's notorious 3 strikes policy, where on your third offence you got the full sentence for your crime.

The paper's periodically amused themselves or wrung their hands if on the left. Over crooks going down in a hail of bullets over a stolen bag of daipers or a cookie.

Quote: sootyj @ 24th June 2015, 4:11 PM BST

I remember California's notorious 3 strikes policy, where on your third offence you got the full sentence for your crime.

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That's not how it worked. A second conviction for a serious felony resulted in a sentence that was twice the normal amount. A third conviction resulted in a mandatory sentence of 25 years to life.

Well that makes it all better!

Although I read somewhere the reason liberal California has such tough prison time, is the super powerful Prison staff unions.

Quote: DaButt @ 24th June 2015, 4:08 PM BST

It's a right guaranteed under the constitution....

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DaButt you do defend American's right to have an arms race with their neighbours extremely well, so you can keep the guns; but surely you can ban Charlton Heston. If he gets Parkinsons he'd be like a Gatling gun in a care home.

As he died in 2008, I think we're safe.

Quote: sootyj @ 24th June 2015, 4:27 PM BST

Although I read somewhere the reason liberal California has such tough prison time, is the super powerful Prison staff unions.

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I think it's because people hate criminals and are more than happy to keep habitual criminals behind bars.

Quote: DaButt @ 24th June 2015, 4:08 PM BST

It's a right guaranteed under the constitution and I'd hate to see my rights infringed upon because criminals insist upon acting like criminals.

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Yes but that constitution was drawn up when you were worried about us. You really don't NEED a gun nowadays. It's totally illogical and uncivilised.

It's a futile discussion. Every last American wants their gun because the next man has.
So bell ends will continue to mass murder and they will claim it's a rarity and blame the rest on gangs and criminals.
Everyone else is quite safe.