I'm not sure it would have ended any other way.
I mean you can't readily assault a chap with a kalash.
And Kipper if the Asian paedophiles you are talking about come out of jail and try and get a job with a premiereship football team.
I shall sign an epetition to saythat's not on.
Unless they are rehabilitated and have publicly asked for forgiveness and apologised.
Quote: Nogget @ 10th January 2015, 8:35 AM GMTBecause there was no question of them trying to become role models.
Neither was Evans, he was paid to be a footballer. This role model nonsense has been drummed up by the poncy liberal media and that includes Gary Lineker. George Best and Jimmy Greaves were the two greatest footballers we ever had, neither was a role model for young boys of concerned parents. Football is football, not a moral education system. Morning BTW.
Quote: sootyj @ 10th January 2015, 8:48 AM GMTI'm not sure it would have ended any other way.
It did in Woolwich. Best ending possible and the two murderers and their fans hate the outcome.
Kipper c'mon lets not turn into down the pub Andy McNabb wanna be's
Woolwich was 2 guys with a rusty pistol and knives in the middle of the street.
Paris was 3 guys into secure locations, in armoured vests with machine guns and hostages.
I suspect Paris Plod had to shoot them in the head or use armour piercing bullets.
And lets not forget in Woolwich the police were trying to stop the killers, they weren't trying to not kill them.
There's enough non lethal gear out there to try it, I thought it was agreed by our govts that we should endeavor to capture them alive and thwart a martyrdom to be celebrated as theirs will be now.
A water cannon would've disabled them, baton rounds or real bullets on the legs would've brought them down. They had 3 days to get that equipment in. Worth a try first I'd have thought, if it doesn't work you have a hundred shooters there to kill them. Morning.
Quote: Alfred J Kipper @ 10th January 2015, 9:00 AM GMTNeither was Evans, he was paid to be a footballer. This role model nonsense has been drummed up by the poncy liberal media /..
To clarify, my words were "there was no question of them trying to become role models"; whether or not you agree with the footballers being role models, there is a question surrounding it, which makes this footballer's rape conviction currently newsworthy.
And good morning to you too.
Quote: Alfred J Kipper @ 10th January 2015, 9:29 AM GMTThere's enough non lethal gear out there to try it, I thought it was agreed by our govts that we should endeavor to capture them alive and thwart a martyrdom to be celebrated as theirs will be now.
A water cannon would've disabled them, baton rounds or real bullets on the legs would've brought them down. Worth a try first I'd have thought, if it doesn't work you have a hundred shooters there to kill them. Morning.
I'm not sure it's that simple or easy, but I agree, we should really be developing long range non-lethal weaponry for this very purpose. If for no other reason than to avoid having to respond to killing with more killing.
Funnily enough I wrote a sketch about that years ago
I think it's dangerous to use half measures in dealing with these situations, you could very easily make things a lot worse if the terrorist is still capable of killing and feels the drama is coming to an end.
Quote: Nogget @ 10th January 2015, 9:46 AM GMTI think it's dangerous to use half measures in dealing with these situations, you could very easily make things a lot worse if the terrorist is still capable of killing and feels the drama is coming to an end.
Agreed -that's why it needs developing so that it's absolutely 100% effective.
Is a fast acting tranquilliser dart an impossibility?
Quote: sootyj @ 10th January 2015, 9:04 AM GMTthey weren't trying to not kill them.
I believe actually they were, those Woolwich police were hailed by the security experts for the outcome they got. They could have ended it in seconds with shots to the head but thankfully they didn't. Now the scum are tasting justice for the rest of their lives. I doubt the other one will be released.
Quote: Lazzard @ 10th January 2015, 10:03 AM GMTAgreed -that's why it needs developing so that it's absolutely 100% effective.
Is a fast acting tranquilliser dart an impossibility?
I was just about to ask that.
Something that knocks you out as fast as a bullet would but doesn't kill you.
Be bloody useful in America, they could stop killing 12 year olds holding toy guns.
They have them, or such guns are available if they want them. A shot pistol firing plastic pellets, a gun firing a small cushion is one I like.
Of course the taser is the current non lethal weapon of choice except it's constantly being proved to be lethal. So I think they'll have to look at the others, there's a lot of investment going into finding decent a non-lethal weapon.
Vetinary darts are a good idea IMO yes.
Quote: Alfred J Kipper @ 10th January 2015, 11:16 AM GMTVetinary darts are a good idea IMO yes.
Yes, one that will knock a heffalump out.
In Judge Dredd, they used to fire 'Boing' at a perp to disable them, by encasing them in a clear plastic sphere.
Darts and shots to the legs -- that's how things are done in the movies, but not in the real world.
Cops have only two things in mind when they use deadly force:
1) Protecting themselves
2) Protecting any hostages and bystanders
Hostage negotiators were on the scene at both locations in France and the terrorists had every opportunity to put down their weapons and have their day in court, but they chose not to do so.
The police only decide to assault the building when the bad guys start killing hostages, appear to be readying to kill hostages, or when it becomes clear that negotiations are futile and the SWAT team is fairly certain that they can end the situation without causing the deaths of any hostages.
Once the assault is under way, anyone holding a gun will be shot by the police. It's the only way to assure that they don't kill hostages or cops.
Cops have every right to shoot someone in order to protect themselves. If it later turns out that the weapon was a replica, the fault lies squarely on the shoulders of the person holding the replica.
This is the toy gun that the 12-year-old pulled from his waistband in Cleveland. It looks very realistic and you'll notice that the required orange tip that serves to identify it as a toy has been removed in order to make it appear even more realistic.
I just remembered the incident in Moscow where 40 terrorists took 800 people hostage in a theater. The police pumped in some sort of knockout gas, but in the end the results were not pretty: 130 hostages were killed by the gas and all of the terrorists were killed either by the gas or police bullets.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moscow_theater_hostage_crisis
"Non-lethal" weapons often turn out to be quite lethal, and they aren't typically suited for use in hostage situations with determined, ruthless terrorists on scene. And it should be noted that a situation that ends with the terrorists being captured alive isn't necessarily the best outcome for society, as they immediately become potential participants in a future prisoner exchange. Indeed, I read that the second set of hostage takers in Paris were demanding the freedom of the Charlie Hebdo murderers. It's reasonable to think that the police "gave them what they wanted" by killing them after they had declared their desire for martyrdom, but had that been their actual, immediate goal they wouldn't have tried to escape, they would have strapped on suicide vests and gone out with a bang.