TBH the real elephant in the room is the European Union. The idea of smashing the big nations in the EU into tiny powerless little cantons, would delight the beuracrats and failed politicians that makes up it's leadership
Scotland, then Wales, then Friesland and the Basque territories it'll spread like wild fire.
With the old nations licking their wounds and the newer ones desperate to be let in [lets not forget Scotland hasn't been promised membership]
There are still some big ticket issues that require unanimous voting. It is tough enough getting 28 nations with piss all in common to agree on anything.
Scotland is on the periphery and could be kept out, but I reckon it will be Belgium dismembering itself next. It would be mighty difficult for the EU to work around an independent Wallonia.
Quote: Tursiops @ 13th September 2014, 9:51 PM BSTThe Scots signed up to the Act of Union in order to gain access to the markets in English conquests abroad.
Once the decision was taken to turn our backs on the Commonwealth
and throw in our lot with Europe, the break up of the Union probably became inevitable.
1 Yes and the Scots did very well out of it for 250 years.
2 We were effectively forced out of control of the Commonwealth.
3 Salmond wants Scotland to stay in Europe, the rest of us could be out in 3 years if we want, and the polls say we do. I find that's the scariest thing, that within just 5 years of now our largest partner in Great Britain could've moved so far away from us it'll be like the middle ages again, enemies at war again.
Salmond is a dangerous fool reminiscent of a young Napoleon. He's opening up the old divisions and hatreds instead of wanting to get on with us. He's an idiot.
The independence thing suddenly hit me very hard. I felt as if I had turned into an ultra unionist overnight. Hell, there was even a big Protestant logo on my t-shirt and that certainly had never been there before.
The key moment was when it was alleged Salmond had threatened to renege on debt with the comment "what are they going to do - invade?" To which I found myself saying "yes absolutely - if they are that unprincipled, bomb them to smithereens". I'm seriously keeping to this policy stance until the financial blind is lifted. Scotland, you are living in a fantasy and you need to know the strength of what has been stirred.
It was an extremely uncomfortable moment for me as basically it isn't me at all. It was Nick Hornby who said in "Fever Pitch" that those who grow up in the suburban south can attach themselves to any culture other than their own. Or words to that effect. The reason, he suggested, was that they don't have their own distinct culture or really feel that they do. So for our generation, it was European film and Indian food and Reggae Reggae Sauce. It was African wildlife and North England whippets and, often, even Celtic music.
And that was precisely what happened to me. At one time, I was spending so many hours in North London Irish pubs and at Celtic gigs, I virtually turned Catholic. That is, in a non-religious sense - and obviously the sympathies extended strongly to the Scottish. Reaching out was very easy and it felt reciprocated but opinion was rarely heard what with the music. I'm wondering now what was being muttered under the idyll.
With the call from "our leaders" to explain to anyone north of the border why we would prefer they voted no, I did it. I phoned a friend or at least I e-mailed him as I prefer integration to Apartheid. It was full of personal and political perspective, clearly thought through if also rather hysterical. And sadly, it was met with a stony silence which made me believe I had interfered as an outsider and that he was voting yes.
Now, I will never know how he is going to vote and perhaps that is right. But the frost was so thick that it was almost permanent ice. I have to say that it was all on my side and I didn't want to feel like that at all.
It was as if the SNP had turned me into an alien and fortunately it has nicely thawed a bit. But what it told me - and I really did shudder at the thought of it - was that if I could just turn in that way one Monday, then anyone could and probably would. As soon as independent Scotland discovered that escaping neo-liberalism was a pipe dream, they would be fighting with each other and we would be fighting against half of them. Furthermore, it would probably be on religious lines when 90% in truth are agnostic or even atheist.
Whether, in the 1980s, suburban types like me had put a lot of effort into immersing ourselves or had just been led there by mock Tudor and cheap booze is debatable. But I really can't accept the version of 19 year old Nats in suits which has been put to me on other forums. That all of us had merely been patronising and continue to be. Their warped position is the same as their divisive leader. Heads they win. Tails we lose.
And in the end, I had to look at why it all feels so upsetting and disloyal. I recalled that in my very young childhood, I had the only opinion of Scotland it was possible to have as no other had been given to us. It was that it just existed on New Years Eve in black and white and that all the Scottish were either Kenneth McKeller or Moira Anderson. In 2014, I don't want 5 million people disappearing behind that tight old curtain.
Sour puss Salmond - gone right off him. >_<
The Daily Mail was crowing today about how Scottish Independence could me a substantial tax rebate for us in rUK.
If it's a yes, I say we boycott the next Highland Games
They won't be able to have a BBC Last Night of the Proms party in Glasgow either!
Quote: Oldrocker @ 14th September 2014, 12:18 AM BSTThey won't be able to have a BBC Last Night of the Proms party in Glasgow either!
*weeps tears of joy*
Quote: A Horseradish @ 13th September 2014, 11:12 PM BSTThe independence thing suddenly hit me very hard. I felt as if I had turned into an ultra unionist overnight. Hell, there was even a big Protestant logo on my t-shirt and that certainly had never been there before.
The key moment was when it was alleged Salmond had threatened to renege on debt with the comment "what are they going to do - invade?" To which I found myself saying "yes absolutely - if they are that unprincipled, bomb them to smithereens". I'm seriously keeping to that stance until the picture is clear. Yes, Scotland, you are living in a total fantasy and you need to know the strength of what has been stirred.
And it was an extremely uncomfortable moment for me as basically it isn't me at all. It was Nick Hornby who said in "Fever Pitch" that those who grow up in the suburban south can latch themselves onto any culture other than their own. Or words to that effect. The reason, he suggested, was that they don't have their own distinct culture or much of it. So for our generation at least, it was European film and Indian food and Reggae Reggae Sauce. It was African wildlife and North England whippets and, often, even Celtic music.
And that was precisely what happened to me. At one time, I was spending so much time in North London Irish areas in pubs and at gigs, I virtually turned Catholic. That is, in a non-religious sense - and obviously the sympathies extended strongly to the Scottish. Reaching out was very easy and it felt reciprocated but opinion was rarely heard what with the music. I'm wondering now what was being muttered under the idyll.
So with the call from "our leaders" to explain to anyone north of the border why we would prefer they voted no, I did it. I phoned a friend or at least I e-mailed him because I was well-intentioned. And, yes, it was full of personal and political perspective, very well thought through if also a bit hysterical, and it was met with a silence which made me believe that I had interfered as an outsider and that he had decided to vote yes.
Well, I will never know how he is going to vote and perhaps that is right. But the frost was so thick that it was almost permanent ice and I have to say that it was all on my side. I didn't want to feel like that at all.
It was as if the SNP had turned me into an alien and fortunately now it has nicely thawed. But what it told me - and I really did shudder at the thought of it - was that if I could just turn in that way one Monday, then anyone could and probably would. As soon as independent Scotland discovered that escaping neo-liberalism was a pipe dream, they would be fighting with each other and we would be fighting against half of them. Furthermore, it would probably be on religious lines when 90% involved would be agnostic or atheist.
Whether in the 1980s suburban types like me had put a lot of effort into immersing ourselves or had just been led there by mock Tudor and cheap booze is debatable. But I just cannot accept the version of 19 year old Nats in suits which has been put to me on other forums. That all of us had just been patronising and continue to be. Their position is the same as their divisive leader. Heads they win. Tails we lose.
And in the end, I had to look at why it has all felt so upsetting and disloyal. I recalled that in my very young childhood, I had the only opinion of Scotland it was possible to have as no other had been given to us. It was that it only existed on New Years Eve in black and white and that all the Scottish were either Kenneth McKeller or Moira Anderson. In 2014, I just don't want 5 million people disappearing behind that old curtain.
Just remember where the nuclear submarines are. 
Quote: keewik @ 14th September 2014, 12:28 AM BSTJust remember where the nuclear submarines are.
Until they're relocated . . .
Last Night of the Proms . . .
Lord, grant that Marshal Wade,
May by thy mighty aid,
Victory bring.
May he sedition hush,
and like a torrent rush,
Rebellious Scots to crush,
God save The King.
Quote: keewik @ 14th September 2014, 12:28 AM BST*weeps tears of joy*
Just remember where the nuclear submarines are.
Awesome - and to think some people believe Scotland currently has no powers. 
That's why I loathe the 'national anthem' and will never stand for it (in addition, of course, to its sycophancy to the alien Windsors).
Salmond whining on about the revelation as to what the banks etc. will do as being scoring points and below the belt - if it is relevant then people need to know this.
I heard that apparently if it does go ahead the border would be extended into the sea along the same diagonal line so we'd have all the oil.
It would be odd if they did it horizontally as Newcastle would have English land on one side and Scottish sea on the other.
The thing that disturbs me is Alex Salmond resembles a Scottish Nigel Farrage and perhaps the future of political leaders.
A smiling, glad hander with cheap solutions to complex problems and pockets full of casual racism.
Take for example the spare bedroom tax and the ATOS tests. He has the power to wipe those out in Scotland if he chose overnight. He could put income tax up by a penny or half a penny in the pound.
He's chosen not to, but rather blame Westminster for a problem it is in his gift to solve.
Or Trident which will most likely be scrapped if he kicks out. Trident represents half the EU and European NATO nuclear deterent. Are either institution going to welcome Scotland if they wipe out half of their strategic reserves on moral grounds.
Then there's sterling, Britain doesn't want to give it. The EU isn't going to accept another state outside the Euro zone. Leaving Scotland with no real currency unless it carries on using a Sterling it has no power over. Like a US dollar based banana republic.
There's no threat Salmond has outside of nuclear war to persuade any Westminster government to tie it's financial security to a foreign power.
It's this collection of blue sky thinking, chippy prejudice and dishonesty that worries me this is the future of all politics.
Scotland is going to be very broke and very isolated. The EU is certainly going to insist on stringent passport checks at the Northern border. Less this become a soft entrance for even more immigration.