No I am happy with my career thanks Kipper. Did your young relative go to Oxbridge? His/her job is just that??? - are you a complete fantasist Alfred.
Oh I see - sorry you mean he is a taxi driver!
Scriptwriting? Why bother. Page 7
I love it, a professional novelist accusing another of fantasising. Forgot to open that door, did you? 
By secluded what do you mean?
Sorry you don't get to have the lunches your crave by the way Kipper. But the rest of us are talking about the joys and tribulations of writing and performance. I guess some peoples motivations are different is all. Carry on dreaming the dream, you have to have one after all for it to come true. Lunch at the IVY? Impossible you say? Well keep at it you never know!
No I think the idea is to sell airspace but I can't or won't be more specific than that. I could pm you but I don't want to get in the way of your work.
That would be much appreciated. Thank you.
Quote: Marc P @ 24th August 2014, 12:17 PM BSTBy secluded what do you mean?
Professional novelist I meant. I'm not on broadbean right now and aren't as quick on this phone at editing as I type. There, sorted now.
Quote: Alfred J Kipper @ 24th August 2014, 9:16 AM BSTSorry Gappy, not picking on you, but that IS the same issue. That's the whole elitist ed. system at work, grads come out of top unis to be hired by alumni who wanted to do the management and technical side of things at the big broadcasting company and of course enjoy nice corporate lunches.
They hire the grads who chose to be the performers. Do you not see the simple logic in that or did it pass you by that's what many students go to Oxbridge for? (if not yourself). Same rule applies to industry, banking, law, politics etc. Morning BTW.
Morning. Don't worry, I don't take it personally, keep the argument coming. 
If we agree, for the sake of argument, that this is all true: the BBC or whoever deliberately chooses Oxbridge grads to fill all its top roles (I don't know if it's true - again, I'll say that if it is it's a only a fraction of the way that this is done in high finance, where they essentially gop round the top universities just signing people up - or at least they did in the 90s, when I studied), and these people then inevitably call up their old chums to write and produce.
OK, that's what happens, fine. Crucially there you are confusing elitism with meritocracy. The theory is that Russell Group universities select the most able people from an open group, and that Oxbridge select the cream of this. As I said, we can discuss whether the system really identifies innate ability or whatever, but I think, having worked in admissions for Oxford previously, I can say that the system is as egalitarian as it can feasibly be, and is certainly fairer than most job applications systems. That's no more elitist than awarding some people As at GCSE and some people Fs.
And if you want to apply to Oxbridge, you can. You can do it right now, if you like. As Marc says, apply for a graduate course if you've already done a degree. UCAS works the same for everyone in the world. And once you're in Cambruidge you can apply to join Footlights. Importantly, Footlights isn't the same oas The Bullingdon Club, as you say, because only certain people will be invited to join the Bullingdon, and they have to effectively prove they're rich before doing so (buying a 5 grand blazer or some such, isnt it?): asking people to rpove they're funny before joining is meritcratic, asking people to prove they're well-off before joining is elitist. Eton is elitist; Cambridge is meritocratic. That's the difference.
And there you are, there's an advantage to attending Oxbridge, perhaps, I definitely agree; but this is not the same as a "closed door policy", which is the contention that inspired me to join this debate. And, it's also worth remembering that although we can all stream Oxbridge comedians from the tops of our heads, how many people actually join Footlights and the Revue and related societies every year? What percentage of people who want to become professional comedians acheive that? I have no idea, but it ain't 95%, is it? Only people with luck and lots of hard work do so. Again, our putative new producer who is looking for a writer won't just phone up any old person, but they'll contact those who have proved themselves continually to be reliable and able.
Now, you said that my flippant comment about falling back on Chris Moyles to present a show rather than looking for anew talent was the same. Well, it's not, is it, as Chris Moyles never went to Cambridge. So far as I'm aware he decided he wanted to work in radio at the age of 10 or something, and carried on grafting until he'd done it. In the same way, there are plenty of people who decide they want to be a comedian at 13 and then start working at getting really good at studying history or something, solely so they can apply to Cambridge and join Footlights - this isn't even new, Graham Chapman applied to Cambridge for this reason.
Sorry for the loong post. I find this really interesting - ignore if you don't. 
Quote: beaky @ 24th August 2014, 11:30 AM BSTAt last, marc's dialogue matches his avatar!
I hver to say, I find it hard to read his posts in any other voice.
I was born with a silver monocle in my mouth!
Yes very interesting Gappy. Yes there are levels of exclusive to inclusive elitism within Oxb you are quite right. No I didn't twig who Chris Molyes was, now I remember he was a DJ.
There are alternatives to Footlights and Review I understand. Andy Hamilton joined the light entertainment society I think it's called. Yes all such socs probably based on entrants being funny but still a big advantage over those non Oxb comedy writers. I never used the term closed shop myself, I think it's more a shop with different doors, the general public door being the hardest to open.
Now this isn't my view because I quite like him but I've read others say 'If Andy Parsons hadn't gone to Cambridge, would he have made it onto primetime BBC comedy shows?' It's that kind of context people often mean in this niggly Oxb influence on comedy debate.
If only there were a way of proving it for sure that there is a big advantage for writers. Like I don't know a list of shows now on, or going back a few years or so? But where would one find such a list. And how on earth apart from doing a tiny bit of research would one find out how many of the writers from such shows are Oxbridge Alumni? I think it is probably just best to just speculate I guess.
Quote: Alfred J Kipper @ 24th August 2014, 12:53 PM BSTstill a big advantage over those non Oxb.
I think that to become a broadcasting exec, this is probably true; I think to become a sit com writer, which is of course how this discussion started, I'd say "big" advantage is definitely pushing it.
Quote: Alfred J Kipper @ 24th August 2014, 12:53 PM BSTNow this isn't my view because I quite like him but I've read others say 'If Andy Parsons hadn't gone to Cambridge, would he have made it onto primetime TV comedy shows?' It's that kind of context people often mean in this niggly Oxb influence on comedy debate.
If I were in charge of, like, everything, I'd cut the number of panel shows on TV by about 80%, and make sure that Andy Parsons was on none of them, but I suppose that's irrelevant. 
But, yes, panel shows and radio comedy and all that is quite possibly a different world from sit coms, I'm not sure. I really don't have that much data, or experience of this world. As Marc says, someone should research this. It would actually make a really good doctorate. Someone on here should do it. In fact, apply to do it at Oxford - and then, inevitably...
Is it, in practice? To get into broadcast comedy many enter via radio, if you've done it through the Oxb FL/Review route then do some radio sketch stuff then a prod says Look do you want your own sketch show, then what about a sitcom - it ends up still being Oxb inf. has eventually earned you that sitcom commission. And you may never have written one in your life, as I have to suspect Ms Perkins hadn't.
I tried to enter the radio, I wouldn't reccommend it.
Unless 3rd degree burns of the knob and the cruel laughter of a walk in NHS clinic are your bag.
Not very many sitcoms on radio have gone on to become TV sitcoms. Very little indeed. Quite surprising really.
You have to turn it on first Sootyj!
I fiddled with both of it's knobs first Notorious.
This isn't my first radio I'll have you know