I'd say it depends what you mean by strong measures.
In countries where the burqas been banned, women tend not to leave the house at all for fear of actions of male relatives.
Dealing with these issues requires using existing laws and infrastructures correctly and empowering existing staff to do their jobs.
Quote: sootyj @ 18th March 2014, 11:42 PM GMTDealing with these issues requires using existing laws and infrastructures correctly and empowering existing staff to do their jobs.
Well so far, zero prosecutions in the UK for FGM despite an estimated 25,000 cases a year. Woo, existing laws and infrastructure rocks!
It's not being used, that's what needs to change.
Besides I thought libertarians weren't fans of bespoke new laws, based on shrill public anxiety.
I'd say the first stage is finding out how of a problem it is.
Quote: sootyj @ 18th March 2014, 11:52 PM GMTBesides I thought libertarians weren't fans of bespoke new laws, based on shrill public anxiety.
Libertarianism is about choice, so we let women choose to have their clitorises removed when they reach 18 years of age. That way, everyone is catered for.
Quote: sootyj @ 18th March 2014, 11:52 PM GMTI'd say the first stage is finding out how of a problem it is.
Just type in FGM in the UK into Google and you'll be given statistics. We know it's going on, doing an extra fact finding mission is just a delaying tactic.
but isn't it also opposition to knee jerk, panic legislation, based on little more than anecdotal evidence.
I mean supposing social services started taking away kids of smokers, or members of anti immigration party voters.
All of which has been done.
The problem is social services and other agencies need to feel they can be disliked and insensitive some of the time, without risking being fired.
Quote: Jennie @ 18th March 2014, 11:16 PM GMTIslam does not dictate FGM (hence why it is not practiced by the majority of Muslims.) It actually pre-dates Islam and is practiced mainly in Sub-Saharan Africa. It has also been practiced by Christians/Jewish groups as well as those that follow tribal religions.
But if you removed the reference to Islam/Sharia, then yes, I think you are right. FGM has been illegal since 1985 and is still practiced by some communities in the UK. So on some level, the law is being ignored by community leaders.
FGM is practiced amongst the relevant immigrant populations on a far too frequent basis. In my job pretty much any Somali woman we see will have had it done and it seems to becoming increasingly an issue amongst other (mostly African immigrant) nationalities. Frankly, I suspect that many of these cases we are now seeing are FGMs which have been performed in the UK.
I have never heard of anyone in this country being prosecuted for performing FGM. That, of course, does not mean it "only happens abroad".
As regards the implications. Apart from the pain and distress of inflicting FGM on a young female, they are more likely to suffer genito-urinary dysfunction. Also, notably, they are are at increased risk of complications peri-natally as mothers-to-be. Increased risk is posed during labour both to the mother and their baby.
I'm rather with RC on this one. Until there are proper, tough UK sanctions, restrictions and enforcements on FGM applied to immigrant populations then it will continue and continue and continue... Cultural sensitivity is one thing, but FGM is simply a medieval torture practised by backward morons.
Well I'm inclined to agree with Doc Tim, he'd know.
I don't think you'd need to crack down particularly hard. You'd probably find a few parents going to prison for a couple of years, and a few cutters getting much longer sentences and the whole thing will just vanish.
It's the cultural cringe that needs to go.
Quote: T.W. @ 18th March 2014, 11:59 PM GMTI'm rather with RC on this one. Until there are proper, tough UK sanctions, restrictions and enforcements on FGM applied to immigrant populations then it will continue and continue and continue... Cultural sensitivity is one thing, but FGM is simply a medieval torture practised by backward morons.
Very eloquently put. I concur.
Quote: sootyj @ 19th March 2014, 12:04 AM GMTI don't think you'd need to crack down particularly hard. You'd probably find a few parents going to prison for a couple of years, and a few cutters getting much longer sentences and the whole thing will just vanish.
But as mentioned previously, how do you go about finding and prosecuting those involved? Especially if they stop using the NHS or only go to doctors that are in collusion with the practice?
Obviously, my Jimmy Savile inspired young girl clitoris inspection squad at all major UK airports is a non-starter - bloody Childline - so how we gonna track down these no good jive turkeys?
Quote: sootyj @ 19th March 2014, 12:04 AM GMTWell I'm inclined to agree with Doc Tim, he'd know.
I don't think you'd need to crack down particularly hard. You'd probably find a few parents going to prison for a couple of years, and a few cutters getting much longer sentences and the whole thing will just vanish.
It's the cultural cringe that needs to go.
Before we get too smug, I'd also ban male circumcision, Soots...
To me, it's all about unnecessary and painful procedures performed for no proven medical benefit and without informed consent. Doesn't matter which religion claims a cultural basis, it's basically physical assault on a child. Doesn't matter if culturally-informed male circumcision tends not to cause so many medical consequences, it's still an unnecessary assault on a child.
(Yes, I'm a self-hating Jew. Well, of Jew-ish descent. Not the whole hog...)
I'd agree with you on that one, not because of any medical concerns.
But just that I think there is a terribly unhealthy principle in allowing religious tradition, override civil law.
Similarly with kashrus and halal. Either the MAF knows the most humane way to kill chickens or it doesn't
nb I thought you were the whole hog so to speak.
nnb I also truly believe that religion has place in the modern world, bronze age practices's less so.
Quote: T.W. @ 19th March 2014, 12:08 AM GMTBefore we get too smug, I'd also ban male circumcision, Soots...
Be like David Cameron and hug a hoody.
You've hugged more hoodies than an affectionate chavette.
Quote: sootyj @ 19th March 2014, 12:11 AM GMTnnb I also truly believe that religion has place in the modern world, bronze age practices's less so.
I agree, it provides community, comfort and support to many people. But not when they're hacking up wee-wees and flou-flous.
Quote: sootyj @ 19th March 2014, 12:11 AM GMTnb I thought you were the whole hog so to speak.
No, only my funny half is Jewish... (which, giving some of my stuff, might not be interpreted as a rousing pro-semitic statement)
Quote: Renegade Carpark @ 19th March 2014, 12:13 AM GMTI agree, it provides community, comfort and support to many people. But not when they're hacking up wee-wees and flou-flous.
You do realise you got my point entirely back to front.
Religious laws shouldn't over ride civil law.
Quote: T.W. @ 19th March 2014, 12:14 AM GMTNo, only my funny half is Jewish... (which, giving some of my stuff, might not be interpreted as a rousing pro-semitic statement)
oh come on it was a circumcision joke.