I read the news today oh boy! Page 1,468

Hmm, to combat female genital mutilation, doctors will now be required to report on any patient who has suffered from FGM.

It's definitely a step in the right direction, but I can see two massive problems -

1. Foreign doctors, some of whom are even suspected of carrying out FGM, will not report it. Word will spread and all women who've suffered with FGM will visit these doctors exclusively.

2. If they can't find an FGM friendly Doctor, then they won't use the NHS at all.

Additionally, what will happen if a doctor discovers that a young girl has had her clitoris removed and reports the findings to the authorities? Will they be taken into care? Will the parents be arrested?

As always, bloody foreigns.

My understanding is that most FGM is performed at home rather than by doctors.

I agree that the only real way to prevent FGM is to change attitudes in the communities in which it is practiced. A couple of prosecutions under the 2003 Act wouldn't hurt either.

Quote: roscoff @ 18th March 2014, 9:45 PM GMT

That's you two that is...

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That is definitely me.

Quote: Renegade Carpark @ 18th March 2014, 10:34 PM GMT

As always, bloody foreigns.

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Yet you still think UKIP supporters are misrepresented.

Quote: Jennie @ 18th March 2014, 10:44 PM GMT

A couple of prosecutions under the 2003 Act wouldn't hurt either.

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As our resident legal beagle, what would be the outcome if they used the defence of religious freedom or some other bit of cultural insensitivity nonsense?

The woman they spoke to on the London News said female family members were the perpetrators of the crime in her case. How will pleas of clemency and leniency be handled? Do you think these women should do jail time for their cultural practice?

And just how difficult is it to prove that someone has cut a small child's genitals? If the child is to young to remember and no witnesses are willing to come forward, how do you prosecute?

Quote: Badge @ 18th March 2014, 10:54 PM GMT

Yet you still think UKIP supporters are misrepresented.

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No, I think their policies are ignored in favour of a media sideshow which gullible lefties swallow up avidly because of their own bigoted and pernicious jealousies.

Quote: Renegade Carpark @ 18th March 2014, 10:55 PM GMT

As our resident legal beagle, what would be the outcome if they used the defence of religious freedom or some other bit of cultural insensitivity nonsense?

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Specifically ruled out as a defence under the Act. Section 1(5) reads:

"For the purpose of determining whether an operation is necessary for the mental health of a girl it is immaterial whether she or any other person believes that the operation is required as a matter of custom or ritual."

There is no religious requirement for FGM - it is a purely cultural thing connected to cleanliness/sexual purity.

So you could not argue an Article 9 right (right to freedom of conscience and religion) because it is not a religious requirement.

Even if it was, Article 9 is qualified (meaning it can be violated in some circumstances). Article 3 - freedom for torture or inhuman or degrading treatment is an absolute right and cannot be violated in any circumstances. So Article 3 trumps Article 9.

Quote: Renegade Carpark @ 18th March 2014, 10:58 PM GMT

The woman they spoke to on the London News said female family members were the perpetrators of the crime in her case. How will pleas of clemency and leniency be handled? Do you think these women should do jail time for their cultural practice?

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I think they would want to make an example out them, to be honest.

I am pretty liberal in my views and am all for accommodating different cultures/beliefs that are outside of my experience.

But to tie a young girl down and do that to her is beyond my comprehension. I cannot see how anyone could truly believe that to be in the child's best interest.

But as I said above - to stop this, you need to change the views of the community. Prosecution alone isn't going to be the answer.

Quote: Renegade Carpark @ 18th March 2014, 10:58 PM GMT

And just how difficult is it to prove that someone has cut a small child's genitals? If the child is to young to remember and no witnesses are willing to come forward, how do you prosecute?

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It tends to happen at 7 - 9, just before the girl enters puberty. So they are likely to remember the perpetrators - but securing a prosecution is a different thing. You have to persuade the victim to come forward (and be ostracised by their community) and then prove who did it. Very tricky and probably why there have been no prosecutions.

Whilst not to be watched whilst eating or by those of a sensitive disposition, this documentary lays out the issues very clearly:

http://www.channel4.com/programmes/the-cruel-cut/4od

Quote: Jennie @ 18th March 2014, 11:01 PM GMT

Even if it was, Article 9 is qualified (meaning it can be violated in some circumstances). Article 3 - freedom for torture or inhuman or degrading treatment is an absolute right and cannot be violated in any circumstances. So Article 3 trumps Article 9.

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That's good to know. My fear is that prosecutions won't be enough. That the religious leaders will call on their followers to ignore any English law that conflicts with their own interpretation of Islamic law.

Eventually, I can see the practice dying out as these tribes people become assimilated into Western society, but I imagine it will be a long time before FGM is eradicated entirely.

Of course, if I were in charge, these kids would be taken into care, the slicers thrown in jail for 15 years and then deported and I would cancel all visas from any countries that indulge in this sickening practice.

But I'm wacky like that.

EDIT: And I'd ban the barbaric practice of male circumcision as well, what is with these religious types and their backwards rituals from the bleeding desert?

Just writing a script for a Dubai media company about their plan to be the worlds most e connected city within 3 years.

Fascinating stuff, government sponsored electric cars, tied into a wifi net that lets you know where to drive to find parking and automatically records this data to improve future transport planning.

Of course Dubai is no democracy and this kind of superjoined up government, which will be in every smart phone. Is the kind of thing that would have every big brother type drooling.

Quote: Renegade Carpark @ 18th March 2014, 11:08 PM GMT

That's good to know. My fear is that prosecutions won't be enough. That the religious leaders will call on their followers to ignore any English law that conflicts with their own interpretation of Islamic law.

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Islam does not dictate FGM (hence why it is not practiced by the majority of Muslims.) It actually pre-dates Islam and is practiced mainly in Sub-Saharan Africa. It has also been practiced by Christians/Jewish groups as well as those that follow tribal religions.

But if you removed the reference to Islam/Sharia, then yes, I think you are right. FGM has been illegal since 1985 and is still practiced by some communities in the UK. So on some level, the law is being ignored by community leaders.

It's indeed a tribal thing, most of the people I know who had it were Christians.

There is a definite need for social services, teachers etc to feel unencumbered with accusations of racism when judging and reporting these things.

Child abuse, is child abuse there is no cultural waver.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-merseyside-18144095

this is the story that sticks in my mind on this subject, the signs were there and all too evident.

Quote: Renegade Carpark @ 18th March 2014, 11:08 PM GMT

Of course, if I were in charge, these kids would be taken into care, the slicers thrown in jail for 15 years and then deported and I would cancel all visas from any countries that indulge in this sickening practice.

But I'm wacky like that.

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OK. Let's follow through your logic:

The kids go into care. So their chances of making a go of life have now been reduced dramatically. They are more likely to go into crime, be on benefits, be young parents, use drugs etc etc. They are now a burden on society.

Many children who experience FGM go on to lead productive lives after being raised by their loving (if heavily misguided) parents.

Don't have any particular issue with jail for the perpetrators. You can't deport British citizens, which many of these are. If they aren't, they are likely to be deported in any event after serving such a long sentence.

A small minority of people in some cultures practice FGM. To cancel visas for anyone from that country is deeply short sighted and illogical. What does it solve? There will still be adherents in this country. Cancelling visas is not going to bring down the FGM rate.

Quote: sootyj @ 18th March 2014, 11:14 PM GMT

Of course Dubai is no democracy

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Is putting it mildly. I was going to visit a friend out there - until she sent me a list of packing do's and don'ts. In the end, I wasn't prepared to take the risk of getting caught doing something I shouldn't.

I'm not so sure care, fostering or adoption are such bad options.

There is a tendency to focus on kids who go into care from already broken homes. Some parents aren't upto the job and cutting your childs gentitals because you lack the imagination not to is a pretty major fail in my possibly prejudiced book.

As for FGM like leprachaun fighting, and snipe hunting without statistics who knows how wide spread.

A terrible liberal habit, is to not monitor stats on things you find uncomfortable then declare there is no problem.

Because there's no record of it.

People I know who had fgm, didn't seem to think it unusual at all.

Quote: Jennie @ 18th March 2014, 11:23 PM GMT

Is putting it mildly. I was going to visit a friend out there - until she sent me a list of packing do's and don'ts. In the end, I wasn't prepared to take the risk of getting caught doing something I shouldn't.

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They pay for scripts so they can't be all bad.

Unlike Saudi Arabia which to date hasn't bought one of my kids show scripts.

So they are obviously total bastards.

Absolutely Soots - get that dough in.

This is kind of about the news. Some of them made me laugh quite a lot.

http://www.thepoke.co.uk/2013/04/26/unfortunate-publishing-layouts-of-our-time/

Quote: Jennie @ 18th March 2014, 11:23 PM GMT

OK. Let's follow through your logic:

The kids go into care. So their chances of making a go of life have now been reduced dramatically. They are more likely to go into crime, be on benefits, be young parents, use drugs etc etc. They are now a burden on society.

Many children who experience FGM go on to lead productive lives after being raised by their loving (if heavily misguided) parents.

Don't have any particular issue with jail for the perpetrators. You can't deport British citizens, which many of these are. If they aren't, they are likely to be deported in any event after serving such a long sentence.

A small minority of people in some cultures practice FGM. To cancel visas for anyone from that country is deeply short sighted and illogical. What does it solve? There will still be adherents in this country. Cancelling visas is not going to bring down the FGM rate.

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By not putting abused children in care, you are allowing the next wave of slicers to emerge. It's a drastic measure, but if you want to stop the practice, there has to be consequences. As for them making a go at life, they're all destined to become covered up Muslim baby factories.

You can revoke British citizenship, especially if they've got it recently and sworn to abide by the laws of the land. If British born, we cannot deport them, but that's where my visa ban comes in. Separating them from the homeland will send a message. Want to see your extended family again, then show us the intact clitorises of your daughters. Again, tough but fair.

The visa thing, we'd deny asylum in any form to people from a country, because that country has practices's that might make someone seek asylum.

I was looking for the definition of a logical moebius strip, thanks.

Quote: sootyj @ 18th March 2014, 11:37 PM GMT

I was looking for the definition of a logical moebius strip, thanks.

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How about feminist campaigners urging the government to do more to stop FGM, but then back peddling when someone suggests introducing strong measures? How's that for a logical Mobius strip of utter failure?

Or we could just talk about it a lot, wring our hands and say: 'Isn't it awful, someone should do something about it', which seems to be the only course of action at present.