Quote: Jennie @ 18th March 2014, 1:22 PM GMThttp://www.amazon.co.uk/Eve-Was-Framed-British-Justice/dp/0099224410
Have a read.
You want me to read a book that doesn't have any wizards in it? Dream on.
But I do agree that the law treats women differently, they get shorter sentences for violent crimes, nicer prisons, more support, more sympathy, endless articles about how they are all blameless victims and it's all men's fault anyways. It's a pretty sweet gig.
Quote: Renegade Carpark @ 18th March 2014, 1:35 PM GMTnicer prisons
Next time I do a prison visit in Holloway, you are very welcome to accompany me.
The problem with offenders in general (but more acutely in female offenders) is that the divide between victim and offender is not clear cut. A sexually exploited woman may well go on to be an offender herself. We have services for victims and services for offenders - but nothing for those that may straddle that divide.
Quote: sootyj @ 18th March 2014, 1:21 PM GMTDon't they deserve credit? As do those who oppose Westbro?
I think you're confusing the argument somewhat. I'm not saying people shouldn't be disgusted by their actions, but in the wider realm of bods doing evil, Westboro is no different to the Occupy Movement.
The disproportionate amount of media coverage has resulted in disproportionate amounts of hatred. Some people who condemn their actions will support burning of poppies on Remembrance Day, even though they are on a par taste and decency wise.
I am in no way defending the Westboros and their actions have been appalling to my moral viewpoint of the world. However, it is depressing to see the puppets dance to the media's tune over and over again. All I want is a bit of consistency.
On the subject of Phelps, some interesting articles from ex WBC members suggesting he might be gay. That is one f**ked up individual.
We should also remember the good work he did as a civil rights lawyer in the 1950s and 60s. No-one is wholly bad.
Quote: Jennie @ 18th March 2014, 1:39 PM GMTThe problem with offenders in general (but more acutely in female offenders) is that the divide between victim and offender is not clear cut. A sexually exploited woman may well go on to be an offender herself. We have services for victims and services for offenders - but nothing for those that may straddle that divide.
Now you are opening up a different argument, that there is no notion of 'evil' and that all offenders are just a number on a scale of mental health, absolved of all intent and actions because they have suffered some form of trauma or abuse.
Luckily for us, not everyone who experiences trauma or abuse goes on to commit violent crimes, otherwise we'd live in a very scary place. So is the answer to do away with prisons all together and just have secure mental hospitals, pumping people full of drugs, shocking their brains or even lobotomising them?
And let's not forget child molesters / child murderers - where does the divide between victim and offender lie? Should we be showing them sympathy rather then calling for the death penalty or castration?
It's a big old can of worms.
Quote: Renegade Carpark @ 18th March 2014, 1:47 PM GMTNow you are opening up a different argument, that there is no notion of 'evil' and that all offenders are just a number on a scale of mental health, absolved of all intent and actions because they have suffered some form of trauma or abuse.
No - that is the complete opposite of what I said.
What I said is that most offenders do not fit neatly into the offender/victim divide and that our rehabilitation system does not accommodate that.
I have been doing some research of late into girls/women involved in gangs. Take one example:
C experienced physical and sexual abuse at home from a young age. Not picked up on by school/SS/other outside agencies. Decided aged 12 to "de-feminise" herself as she realised that typically "feminine" women were targets for sexual exploitation.
Three older brothers all involved in gang activity. They took her along a couple of times to carry out crime and then threatened her with rape in order to secure her silence.
Aged 14, she carries out a pretty awful knifepoint robbery and ends up in a YOI. It isn't clear whether this was done at the behest of the brothers or not.
Is she a victim or an offender? She is clearly both. But now she is in the criminal justice system, she will be treated as an offender for life.
She is not absolved of all blame or intent. But her choices have been constrained by her circumstances.
Quote: Renegade Carpark @ 18th March 2014, 1:47 PM GMTwhere does the divide between victim and offender lie?
It is different for every individual. We run into difficulty when we start applying broad brush generalisations to each person who ends up in the criminal justice system.
The first priority must always be protection of the public. Currently we aren't very good at that, with re-offending rates as high as they are. There must be a better way.
I haven't even got started on mental health.
Quote: Jennie @ 18th March 2014, 2:09 PM GMTThree older brothers all involved in gang activity. They took her along a couple of times to carry out crime and then threatened her with rape in order to secure her silence.
Now that's interesting, what's the story on the three older brothers? Why are they doing what they're doing? Were they themselves abused in any way?
I appreciate you providing examples of anecdotal evidence and that even though someone was initially a victim, they are now a perpetrator, but there are very few violent criminals, male or female, who don't fall into that category.
We use sweeping generalisations because we can't afford to look at every single case individually. Our prisons are bursting at the seams as it is with 88,000 inmates.
But excuse me for using broad brush strokes, it could have been worse, I could have said something that applied to only female offenders and generalised them as a group. 
Quote: Renegade Carpark @ 18th March 2014, 2:30 PM GMTNow that's interesting, what's the story on the three older brothers? Why are they doing what they're doing? Were they themselves abused in any way?
Probably. Although for many men, involvement in gang activity is often expected in order to survive in certain communities. It is the rules of the street. Studies show that women and girls are more likely to become involved due to either association (mother/girlfriend/sister of a gang member) or exploitation.
Quote: Renegade Carpark @ 18th March 2014, 2:30 PM GMTWe use sweeping generalisations because we can't afford to look at every single case individually. Our prisons are bursting at the seams as it is with 88,000 inmates.
But we do look at every single case individually - when a person is sentenced, they are sentenced alone. They stand in the dock as an individual.
Quote: Jennie @ 18th March 2014, 2:48 PM GMTBut we do look at every single case individually - when a person is sentenced, they are sentenced alone. They stand in the dock as an individual.
Bit idealistic? Prosecutors, defenders, probation officers, judges and juries all each bring their own baggage of assumptions/prejudices as to the character of the defendant into court. Not saying they consciously/overtly do this, but it's inevitable that it influences presumptions of guilt/innocence/sentencing. We don't have a blind justice system.
I do NOT have baggage, Timothy. 
But yes, you are right. We live in a fallen world. I was simply answering the point that it is impossible to treat offenders on a case by case basis - there is a point at which all offenders are addressed individually.
I actually think the Probation Service does a pretty good job with absolutely no resources.
Ultimately, prevention of crime is not the job of the criminal justice service. Teachers, social workers, psychologists, health care professionals...they do the preventative work.
I went to a residential weekend on gang violence a couple of weeks ago and had the opportunity to hear from and speak with this chap:
http://www.theguardian.com/society/2012/oct/28/gang-member-crime-junior-smart
Impressive guy who is doing phenomenal work in south London. We need more like him.
Quote: Jennie @ 18th March 2014, 6:51 PM GMTUltimately, prevention of crime is not the job of the criminal justice service. Teachers, social workers, psychologists, health care professionals...they do the preventative work.
Police- we have an excellent police contact guy at the moment. Very pro-active (although don't get me started on his predecessor!)
And gang culture starts early. I'm writing a play about it right now based on an amalgamation of kids who have passed through my classroom.
Ross aren't you a primary teacher?
Rusky business? The long good nap time?
Primary School is where we need to start. Gang recruitment starts at 10 - 11 years old these days. By the time they get to 14/15/16 some of the attitudes and lifestyles are already entrenched.
They say most of the things that will decide the life you lead happen in the first day of your life.
Quote: Jennie @ 18th March 2014, 8:08 PM GMTPrimary School is where we need to start. Gang recruitment starts at 10 - 11 years old these days. By the time they get to 14/15/16 some of the attitudes and lifestyles are already entrenched.
I've got some disappointing news for you. There are 2 kids currently in the referral unit in the comp who even the kids in my class will tell you were running with gangs in year 4! They got them to throw a metal scooter off a motorway bridge knowing they couldn't be touched. Among other things. Classy area.