No all-male panel BBC shows Page 6

Quote: Tony Cowards @ 10th February 2014, 9:49 AM GMT

The reason lots of people think that women can't be funny is that they rarely have an opportunity to see women being funny, this will, hopefully, alleviate this problem.

The comedy circuit is full of funny women doing every style of comedy, if you can't find one out there who makes you laugh then comedy probably isn't for you.

My only worry about this BBC policy is they've not specified at least one female comedian, just one female panellist, so it may be that we see more of Jamelia, Deborah Meaden, Louise Redknapp etc.

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Also true.

If you went back to the 60s-70s similar arguments would be made about black and definitely Asian comics. I think it really talk Goodness Gracious Me to blow down the doors on Asians being funny.

Sadly I'm Jewish, a minority over represented in comedy, so I only have my own crapness to blame.

Quote: Matthew Stott @ 10th February 2014, 11:12 AM GMT

more you're possibly a bit of a blinkered bell end.

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Quote: Nogget @ 9th February 2014, 12:33 PM GMT

Panel shows such as QI and Mock the Week will no longer have all-male line-ups, the BBC's director of TV has said.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-26107011

What will be the effect of this?

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I disagree with conscious discrimination either way (positive or negative). Demanding that there is a quota of any one segment can be very damaging, especially, imo, if it doesn't reflect the proportions of the segment in the general population. (e.g. saying you need 1/2 your show to be 6' tall or more is unfair if only 10% of all suitable guests, regardless of height, are that tall).

Why not draw up a list of all people deemed good enough/suitable for a series and then assign each show's panel pseudorandomly so that each individual has equal chance?

Hell - publish the list, let people see who is considered. Passing over good candidates due to race/sex/hair colour for white male filler would soon be noticed.

Quote: Judgement Dave @ 10th February 2014, 2:58 PM GMT

I disagree with conscious discrimination either way (positive or negative). Demanding that there is a quota of any one segment can be very damaging, especially, imo, if it doesn't reflect the proportions of the segment in the general population. (e.g. saying you need 1/2 your show to be 6' tall or more is unfair if only 10% of all suitable guests, regardless of height, are that tall).

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Well, yeah. But given half the general population is being underrepresented, I'm not sure that's a problem.

Why not draw up a list of all people deemed good enough/suitable for a series and then assign each show's panel pseudorandomly so that each individual has equal chance?

A good panel is drawn up with creative considerations in mind. Motormouths with rope-a-dopes. Punmachines with observationalists. Upbeats with deadpans. Solid people in the first chair, experiments in the third, that sort of thing. As a result of this, you're making discriminatory judgements all the time.

Hell - publish the list, let people see who is considered. Passing over good candidates due to race/sex/hair colour for white male filler would soon be noticed.

That's commercially sensitive information. Publishing it would make these shows more expensive.

Quote: Mr Writer Like In The Song @ 10th February 2014, 3:24 PM GMT

Well, yeah. But given half the general population is being underrepresented, I'm not sure that's a problem.

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I've not seen evidence that that's the case.

The general population suitable for comedic panel shows is not the same as the entire population of the country/world. I suspect that there is a gender imbalance in people professionally involved in comedy in one form or another. It won't be a 50/50 split.

Again - in my opinion it's better that each suitable individual has equal chance of being selected.

Quote: Judgement Dave @ 10th February 2014, 3:29 PM GMT

I've not seen evidence that that's the case.

The general population suitable for comedic panel shows is not the same as the entire population of the country/world. I suspect that there is a gender imbalance in people professionally involved in comedy in one form or another. It won't be a 50/50 split.

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OK. But no-one is talking about a 50/50 split in terms of booking. We're talking about a small quota as a means of offsetting a huge imbalance.

Again - in my opinion it's better that each suitable individual has equal chance of being selected.

Which on some shows at the moment, is demonstrably not the case if you are a woman.

Quote: Mr Writer Like In The Song @ 10th February 2014, 3:24 PM GMT

A good panel is drawn up with creative considerations in mind. Motormouths with rope-a-dopes. Punmachines with observationalists. Upbeats with deadpans. Solid people in the first chair, experiments in the third, that sort of thing. As a result of this, you're making discriminatory judgements all the time.

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I'm aware of this, but kept my previous post simple. I'm sure it'd be possible to pick the talent to be used (from the suitable pool) at the start and then assign to episodes within the series, tweaking the creative mix at this stage.

Sure you'd possibly end up with some shows having all male panels, some with all female, etc - but over time, assuming a fair pseudorandom selection, a proportionate reflection of the suitable pool would be selected/appear.

Quote: Mr Writer Like In The Song @ 10th February 2014, 3:33 PM GMT

Which on some shows at the moment, is demonstrably not the case if you are a woman.

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Oh I'd say it certainly seems skewed at the moment. But if you have chance to move away from an unfair system why bother replacing it with another unfair system?

Quotas are just a different unfair system.

People don't need 'token' representation, they need equal opportunity based upon merit/suitability regardless of irrelevant factors (sex/race/etc).

I think what you're saying is that gender shouldn't be a factor in selection. Which actually, I broadly agree with. If there's wasn't an existing problem, then it wouldn't need to be.

Sometimes a form of affirmative action is needed to shift entrenched ideas. Given some of the opinions expressed on this thread, I think we're definitely at such a time.

I think it's tougher to get started if you're a lady in some areas of open miking.

Because mostly people start in open mikes more than anywhere else. Now I've been to way to many where it's been 9 guys and one gal and rape, rape, rape gag.

You need ovaries the size of bowling balls to do that week in week out.

I think it's got a lot better. But you still have to make up for all the years when it wasn't.

BTW a different but related point: Last year Manchester hosted a women's comedy festival. A good festival, many good acts, and I hoped the shows were successes but I was against the principle of the festival.

It's no doubt easy being a white male, but in my mind having women-only comedy festivals is almost asserting that women can't stand on their own two feet (what a disablist thing to say!).

That's, imo, blatantly absurd - comedy is as far as I can tell, a pretty much gender/race/age/sexuality/belief-neutral mental pursuit.

Effectively enforcing quotas is almost the same thing - we have to have x number of women by decree, because they couldn't make it on on their own merit.

Quote: Mr Writer Like In The Song @ 10th February 2014, 3:40 PM GMT

I think what you're saying is that gender shouldn't be a factor in selection. Which actually, I broadly agree with.

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Aye - I suspect we pretty much agree a problem exists, just disagree over how best to address it.

Quote: sootyj @ 10th February 2014, 3:45 PM GMT

I think it's tougher to get started if you're a lady in some areas of open miking.

Because mostly people start in open mikes more than anywhere else. Now I've been to way to many where it's been 9 guys and one gal and rape, rape, rape gag.

You need ovaries the size of bowling balls to do that week in week out.

I think it's got a lot better. But you still have to make up for all the years when it wasn't.

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I'd actually sort-of blame the audiences here. There's a certain type of audience/club that seems to appreciate that and obviously know that women aren't funny, and neither are men who don't do rape/paedo/racist 'jokes'.

I'm pretty sure that the problem is that there's some sort of correlation between humour and general intelligence/learning, and an inverse relationship between general intelligence/learning and bigotry...

(BTW - note 'learning' not 'education'...)

I think it goes to show that the women who made it through to being in consideration for panels, have often had a harder time of it.

I mean even in the last year or so, I think tolerance for bullying and truly offensive material has declined. But it still means that levelling the playing field is no bad thing.

So long as the actual comedian on the show has the skills to pay the bills.

And come on some of those doing the rounds these days are the comedic equivalent of; bright orange Ford Sierras, with smoking exhaust pipes and an 8 track tape deck.

I'm frankly tired of hearing some senile old excomic burbling,
"who's the current fat MP, well he ate all the pies."

or

"Beatles, more like that the Cockroaches."

There's no reason why funny women have to come from the comedy circuit. In fact, the only part of the panel shows that might be relevant to that is the standup bit in Mock The Week, which I'm not even sure they do any more.

Judgement Dave, I agree with your points in principle but women in comedy are fighting against a prejudice that is several decades old (if not, perhaps, hundreds of years), in order to gain equality in a relatively short space of time there needs to be something to give them a bit of a boost to help them catch up (see also the Rooney Rule in American Football).

Women make up 51% of the adult population and, IIRC roughly 20% of the comedy circuit (a percentage which is currently increasing), however prior to this policy women on QI, for instance, made up less than 10%.

The fact that an all female panel show would be very unusual (has it ever happened?) but all male panel shows happen quite regularly.

There was a time in the US when no one would have thought Jews could do comedy.

Sometimes a level playing field can produce a more interesting game.