Alternative Comedy

I have a hard time defining 'alternative comedy' these days. A lot of the people who might previously have been termed 'alternative' are pretty mainstream (appearing on radio and TV panel, variety, sketch and stand-up shows), and a lot of the people who never get on TV any more are the people doing the kind of comedy that 'alternative' comics were originally breaking away from (Jim Davidson and the like). A friend of mine referred to people like Nick Helm, Thom Tuck and Josie Long as alternative comics, so I'm wondering if 'alternative' has come to mean 'niche' in this context? What do you guys think? Is there such a thing as 'alternative comedy' any more?

It's just not the same thing as it used to be. Alternative comedy is whatever is the opposite of the mainstream taste. So anything which isn't largely anecdotal, observation or standard one-liner based.

Maybe it's just a term that's dated? I mean surely there was a time before post modernism, when there was just modernism.

Definitely at the time in the 1980s it had a definite meaning e.g; there is the conventional comedy, Benny Hill and The Two Ronnies et al. Here is the alternative, Friday Night Live, The Comic Strip Presents etc.

Though it could be said to have kicked off with Monty Python.

Quote: sootyj @ 9th December 2013, 3:39 PM GMT

surely there was a time before post modernism, when there was just modernism.

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warning, I did this at uni, innit, so this is a very boring reply

Certainly was, and modernism in fact refers broadly to the existence of a true 'alternative'. So 'punk' is kind of modernism. Surrealism, dadaism, german expressionism etc was true modernism (vaguely 1900s-1970s). Post-modernism refers to the fact that 'the alternative' has become much harder to define because 'alternatives' have largely been absorbed into the mainstream, or the mainstream makes references to what was originally considered alternative.

So technically the idea of an alternative 'movement' doesn't exist within a postmodern world because we don't have 'movements' in the same way anymore. (Depending on whether you really believe we live in a postmodern world).

Alternative nowadays has a literal meaning - a type of comedy that provides an alternative to what is available through mainstream channels. But I'd argue things like Stewart Lee could still be called 'alternative', because it's still an alternative to what is currently popular.

Quote: sglen @ 9th December 2013, 4:27 PM GMT

warning, I did this at uni, innit, so this is a very boring reply

Certainly was, and modernism in fact refers broadly to the existence of a true 'alternative'. So 'punk' is kind of modernism. Surrealism, dadaism, german expressionism etc was true modernism (vaguely 1900s-1970s). Post-modernism refers to the fact that 'the alternative' has become much harder to define because 'alternatives' have largely been absorbed into the mainstream, or the mainstream makes references to what was originally considered alternative.

So technically the idea of an alternative 'movement' doesn't exist within a postmodern world because we don't have 'movements' in the same way anymore. (Depending on whether you really believe we live in a postmodern world).

Alternative nowadays has a literal meaning - a type of comedy that provides an alternative to what is available through mainstream channels. But I'd argue things like Stewart Lee could still be called 'alternative', because it's still an alternative to what is currently popular.

and then I got off the bus

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Heythat's Stewart Lee's gag!

Quote: sootyj @ 9th December 2013, 4:28 PM GMT

Heythat's Stewart Lee's gag!

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Interesting points. I think what spurred the question was the title of Stewart Lee's show, because I wouldn't call Stewart Lee especially 'alternative' these days because his style is replicated by a lot of the more popular mainstream comics and he's on TV and radio a fair bit himself. Saying you like Stewart Lee doesn't really mark you out as having particularly unusual or indie taste any more.

I think for the 'alternative' to exist there has to be some kind of sameness in everything that gets wide viewing, but I think that (barring the influx of upper middle class 20-something men making jokes about trashy reality TV) there is quite a lot of variety in what you see on the major comedy outlets in recent years. There are jolly inoffensive comics, comics who just make knob gags, mean insults, surrealism, satirists, musical comedy, slapstick, puns, character comedy, mimes! It feels like it would be very difficult to find a type of act or style that wasn't represented in the TV or radio schedules, so can there be an 'alternative' if it's all kind of mainstream?

Quote: Harridan @ 9th December 2013, 10:08 PM GMT

Interesting points. I think what spurred the question was the title of Stewart Lee's show, because I wouldn't call Stewart Lee especially 'alternative' these days because his style is replicated by a lot of the more popular mainstream comics and he's on TV and radio a fair bit himself. Saying you like Stewart Lee doesn't really mark you out as having particularly unusual or indie taste any more.

I think for the 'alternative' to exist there has to be some kind of sameness in everything that gets wide viewing, but I think that (barring the influx of upper middle class 20-something men making jokes about trashy reality TV) there is quite a lot of variety in what you see on the major comedy outlets in recent years. There are jolly inoffensive comics, comics who just make knob gags, mean insults, surrealism, satirists, musical comedy, slapstick, puns, character comedy, mimes! It feels like it would be very difficult to find a type of act or style that wasn't represented in the TV or radio schedules, so can there be an 'alternative' if it's all kind of mainstream?

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I'd say you do still get some pretty crazy stuff at smaller shows and open mics etc. Stuff that can be said to be truly alternative (that you haven't seen anyone else do...).

But I don't think you can really have the same kind of grassroots alternative movements we had 30 years ago - and those movements were often wider than the art because they encompassed a kind of 'punk' attitude even way before punk existed. There are just so many media channels now all catering for different audiences - it allows for very niche stuff to get in there. There's also ways to self-broadcast or self-publish that makes you very accessible tot he masses.

The same has happened to alternative music, I suppose, in that BBC 6 Music will often play some-little-band-from-just-around-the-corner-I-saw-in-the-loft-room-of-a-pub-the-other-night (and that kind of thing). And then you have Bandcamp, Soundcloud and Spotify that make it really easy to discover and buy new music regardless of whether it's made by some bloke in their bedroom or a major act.

I'm not sure I'd say this is a shame, though. I think it makes more interesting content more accessible and probably speeds up the process of the 'avant garde' influencing more mainstream acts and making them more interesting too.

Alternative nowadays would be probably something like frankie boyle (although he is retired now) as he was very controversial. Or impressionists such as steven Mackay and rory bremmner. However now that one liner comedians are becoming more well known I don't think one liner an be classed as alternative comedy anymore.

Its really hard to define as it keeps changing