It's about blaming others for not being recognised. Which is human and understandable but needs to be passed on with in some way. Which is not easy. Goodness knows. But as in all things in life make peace with the past and learn to deal with the future. At the end of the day Art isn't about money so everybody can live their dream.
I started off saying that grammar is not all it is about and people shouldn't diss it, because imagination is far more important. I think I stuck to my point. But good discussion and no hard feelings we all had our input and that is good.
Quote: Marc P @ 7th December 2013, 2:09 AM GMTIt's about blaming others for not being recognised. Which is human and understandable but needs to be passed on with in some way. Which is not easy. Goodness knows. But as in all things in life make peace with the past and learn to deal with the future. At the end of the day Art isn't about money so everybody can live their dream.
I wasn't blaming anything for nothing but good words
Quote: Carlos Manwelly @ 7th December 2013, 2:13 AM GMTI started off saying that grammar is not all it is about and people shouldn't diss it, because imagination is far more important. I think I stuck to my point. But good discussion and no hard feelings we all had our input and that is good.
I wasn't blaming anything for nothing but good words
Good for you Carlos good debate and good no silly flame type nonsense. We all care about the issues so good on you.
It wasn't you I referenced with the blaming by the way.
Quote: Marc P @ 7th December 2013, 2:16 AM GMTGood for you Carlos good debate and good no silly flame type nonsense. We all care about the issues so good on you.
I enjoyed it and it didn't get to mad.
Goodnight Marc, I love you. And Sglen I think I love you too.
Half two in the morning - Were the last few posts helped with a bottle of whiskey near to hand? 
In truth I was reading I was reading a Billy Bunter compendium.
Quote: Carlos Manwelly @ 7th December 2013, 2:02 AM GMTPeople who don't know punctuation and grammar are not 'stupid'. They just haven't learned it
Pity for them
I was not taught much punctuation at school, and almost no grammar. I acquired enough to get by from reading, something all writers should do. But I reached a point where if I was going to take writing at all seriously, I realised I would have to knuckle down and get a decent grip. The advantage of mastering grammar and punctuation, is not simply that it makes your words more accessible to others, it is that it gives you control over those words and enables you to express yourself more effectively.
But grammar and punctuation are seldom the main thrust of criticism in Critique; more often they are mentioned as an aside and then picked up on in righteous indignation, rather than the original poster dealing with the more substantive criticism that the work is not actually very good.
Take the example that seems to have started this bunfight:
Quote: Marc P @ 2nd December 2013, 8:38 PM GMTThis is very poorly written and some basic grammar mistakes are unforgivable. In general forums it is ok to quickly post something off, but in critique do yourself the favour of making it as best you can. It is not a wall to piss against or scrawl misspelled grafitti.
The phrase that leaps out at me "is this is very poorly written", which I think we would all agree that it is, at a number levels; the poor grammar is, however, a part of that because it makes the poem read unnaturally and jars on the reader.
There is also the issue of proof reading; even with a spell-checker, we all miss things, but too many mistakes is just laziness, and is disrespectful to those who you are asking to read your work. You are making them do work because you can't be bothered.
But if you are genuinely posting something funny and creative, people might try to help by pointing out typos and misspellings, and punctuation and grammar problems, that interfere with what you are trying to achieve, but they will also praise the funniness. Because we are all looking to be entertained.
Also in my experience Critique is seldom personal, it is about whether people like you as a writer, not as a person.
There seems to be two general trains of thought here and I agree with both.
One is, write creatively letting the words flow and sod the grammar.
And two, grammar is all important and should be adhered to very strictly.
Both are correct but the argument - sorry discussion seems to hinge on that each point hinders the other.
I don't know how everybody else writes but when an idea strikes me, I must get it down quickly before it disappears into the ether.
But later, I will try to the best of my ability to correct grammar, spelling and the flow.
Quote: Tursiops @ 7th December 2013, 10:32 AM GMTwe all miss things, but too many mistakes is just laziness, and is disrespectful to those who you are asking to read your work. You are making them do work because you can't be bothered.
This is the point for me. When you post in critique, what you are saying is:
Hello people I don't know who owe me nothing at all, please spend some of your finite minutes on this planet reading what I have done and helping me make it better.
When someone offers you critique they are doing you a favour. Failing to afford them the common courtesy of giving it a quick proofread before you post makes you a git.
We all make mistakes and some people have a better grasp of grammar than others. But we can all try.
[EDIT: IN response to Stephen's post not Jennie's]
Actually that's not the case. Dialogue has nothing whatsoever to do with grammar for instance. People throw the word around in the wrong context. I made some comments on the grammar in the original post because of the nature of what it was, which was certainly not something written for genuine critique. My main point is, and always has been, that people are looking for reasons to reject material. And that is a stone cold fact, not the other way around. So the less reasons you give them, the less the authorial presence gets in the way of the story you wish to tell the better. ANd if you know grammar or spelling isn't your thing, get someone to read and lend a hand before submitting. You wouldn't send a hand written script in green ink in, so the more pro it looks from the beginning the better your chances are.
Bloody hell you lot are not still on about it are you, go shopping or something
The irony is, I'm sure we all agree whole-heartedly that the original poem was shit.
I have immaculate knowledge of grammar and spelling; sadly, I'm the worst typist in a 20 mile radius, and my handwriting is illegible, so it's all for nothing. 
True, on a forum devoted to works for performance grammar is a red herring; the only time I can recall raising it as an issue is when an extract from a novel has been posted, and then only because it was interfering with sense.
The more common criticisms around lack of professionalism on Critique, are sloppiness, a failure to understand the basics of the form the author is attempting to write in, and most commonly half-baked unfunny ideas which should have been self-squashed by the author without troubling others. You are your own first and best editor - you should be applying your own shit filter.
Quote: Carlos Manwelly @ 7th December 2013, 11:30 AM GMTBloody hell you lot are not still on about it are you, go shopping or something
I would sooner do almost anything rather than Christmas shopping.
Well 7 pages and growing! I'm impressed,
Firstly, Sorry for the poor grammar, I rushed the poem and posted it in about five minutes, didn't expect it to get so much attention.
I've edited it now and hopefully it reads a little better, (I can try to improve the grammar but can't improve the quality of the writing as I'm rubbish! Sorry!)
To those of you who thought this was me having a go at Teddy, It was meant as a tribute to the man.
I think it's sad that he would leave this forum not because he had no talent, not because he had no use for it, but because he simple could not learn to accept criticism and did not understand that success isn't guaranteed just because you feel your talent is exceptional.
My poem, whether you think it's good or bad was intended to bring a little humour to a sad event and remind us all that passion is not an excuse for rudeness and talent is not always a doorway to success!
Well saying that there are a lot of deluded failure on here and he is one of them.. I don't know... It's not coming across as kind to me.