Who do you fancy? Page 1,053

No I am sure she is not doing it for her sexual gratification. But she is giving a strong signal. She does like curvy, beautiful well made up women. This much is obvious from the photo. And Katy kissed a woman and liked it. I know they are messing about but if it was Russell Brand doing the same thing while on the arm of Katy Perry and perving at Ellen's wife's breasts how would that be perceived. Not sure what my point is but it's interesting as it throws up perspectives I guess. Katy certainly didn't wear the dress in the expectation that her breasts wouldn't be ogled at and I guess Ellen was referencing that.

Does she like curvy, beautiful made up women? How do you know that? Portia DeRossi, Alexandra Hedison and Anne Heche don't really fit that model of beauty - they are all slim, svelte and understated in their dress sense.

There is also a difference between the power relationship and social context of a man doing that to a woman he is friends with and a lesbian doing that to a woman she is friends with.

If Katy Perry was uncomfortable with what Ellen was doing, or if it was clearly her leering at Perry in a straightforward pervy way I would have a different reading on it.

Well just from that photo as I said.

Quote: Harridan @ 14th November 2013, 10:31 AM GMT

There is also a difference between the power relationship and social context of a man doing that to a woman he is friends with and a lesbian doing that to a woman she is friends with.

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Why though I guess is the question I am asking?

Quote: Marc P @ 14th November 2013, 10:36 AM GMT

Why though I guess is the question I am asking?

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Because most women have a shared experience of sexual harassment or objectification by men. It's the same reason why white people shouldn't use the N-word and why I can call myself a 'dyke' but you shouldn't call me one.

I should think if you are proud to use the word dyke then the way to negate any potency in a negative sense of the word you should be happy to have others use it if they have no issues whatsoever about your sexual preferences. And women sexually objectify too... don't they? Most of the objectification of women comes from the media and most people in the media are women. Which I know is a different subject.

Quote: zooo @ 14th November 2013, 10:41 AM GMT

Maybe because lesbians don't have a history centuries long of woman on woman rape and pillage behind them.

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I really do think these are two different issues. Incidentally, more men are raped in AMerica than women. Admittedly it is men mainly who are doing the rape.

You can't really be this oblivious, can you? Surely not?!

What do you mean by oblivious? To what?

Well I agree with all that. WHich is why I said the debate raised issues. I am not sure what the answers are. But saying a lesbian is not attracted to another woman's breast because she has her own is like saying George Michael wouldn't be interested in another man's penis because he has one of his own. I am not talking about promiscuity just normal human physical attraction which is impulse and not reasoned. THe comic effect to put it bluntly was.

'Cor you've got a nice pair of tits darling and they are nearly falling out of your dress.' I just don't see this as falling into an ideological statement or a challenge to patriarchal hegemony I guess was what I was talking about.

I wasn't saying that lesbians aren't attracted to other women's breasts, I'm saying that they tend not to prompt the tongue-on-the-floor kind of reactions they prompt in some men, because they aren't such a novelty.

The tongue on the floor reaction is based on insecurity and a childish way of expression. But the synapse firings are the same aren't they? Otherwise it's back to saying women shouldn't be sexual which is retrograde, victorian thinking. Something not being a novelty, or other, sometimes makes something more comfortable and desirable I guess too. Well desirable if you are wired that way.

Quote: zooo @ 14th November 2013, 11:02 AM GMT

I guess I just see it as a friend taking the piss out of another friend's outfit. She's just being silly.

If Ben Stiller (random man choice) was wearing a shirt with a few buttons undone and Owen Wilson peeked down his shirt in a comedic fashion, it would be more or less the same, wouldn't it? Not a big deal really.

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No not all No big deal. Just interesting in the issues it raises. Let's just agree it is a lovely dress

I actually think it's a hideous dress

Quote: zooo @ 14th November 2013, 11:03 AM GMT

Why was Ben Stiller the first man I thought of...?

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He wasn't but you couldn't dare to admit it was Russell Brand

Quote: Harridan @ 14th November 2013, 11:05 AM GMT

I actually think it's a hideous dress

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I would have to lose a couple of pounds to bring it off.

Quote: Harridan @ 14th November 2013, 10:22 AM GMT

It is clearly her taking the piss, though. I don't think that she is doing that for her own sexual gratification at all.

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I reckon it's a bit of both. She's using her modern day freedom of expression as a lezo to express what she really feels, ofcourse she'd love to get her hands on them, and also she has the luxury of being able to hide behind irony and the humour/piss taking thing because she's a famous comedienne. In other words she's using the same sex thing and humourous tongue in cheek thing and exploiting the complexity of sexual politics and the fact women really own it to have a good old ogle and get away with it. And why not? But she isn't fooling me.

Quote: Harridan @ 13th November 2013, 10:26 PM GMT

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Well that takes the hegemony out of the argument I guess.

This is a complicated video. Genius line... 'forget your balls and grow a pair of tits.' For me there is no titillation in it at all.. and she does make the sarcasm comment. I see what she is doing with it and I think pulls if off but am not sure. Certainly in the lines of Ellen's take maybe... but like I say it's a complicated one. HEre it is anyway...

http://www.youtube.com/user/lilyallen?annotation_id=annotation_1169216789&feature=iv&src_vid=E0CazRHB0so&sub_confirmation=1