Ban the Burka? Page 23

Quote: sootyj @ 6th November 2013, 11:04 PM GMT

But somewhere along the line, religious indoctrination of all stripes is poisonous, insidious and bloody dangerous.

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The problem with that argument, as atheist as I personally am, is that Jennie's right that the research tends to show the opposite. Religious people do tend to be happier. That's not necessarily because religion is "good for you" but it maybe does say something about its many positive elements - the sense of community, the calming effects of ritual, the belief in a support network...I mean, there are very obvious cases where organised religion has done more harm than good and we all know about them, but then there isn't really an anecdote connected with "I'm religious and it makes me feel nice" so I think the stories we hear are largely biased towards the negative.

I think one needs to see the diference between religion and cultic indoctrination.

I've met some very nice people, who have become even nicer by accepting the guidance of a higher being in all their actions.

I've also met some very, brave and scared people who broke free. The liberal, fear of judging is so dangerous.

Quote: sootyj @ 6th November 2013, 11:29 PM GMT

I've also met some very, brave and scared people who broke free. The liberal, fear of judging is so dangerous.

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Anyone who is in danger should be supported to make a change, regardless of whether it is religion or anything else. But I suppose the problem is that judging people doesn't tend to make that change, banning things doesn't tend to make that change; a softer approach allowing people the freedom to make their own choices is a better way to support people, in my opinion. It's what we do with individuals. If you have a friend or family member you think has made a bad decision, then judging them is likely to push them further into that decision (no one likes to be told what to do), but taking a less intervention-y stance and just listening to how they actually feel, encouraging them to make the right choices when they ask for that advice, is going to work a lot better. I just think that same psychology works on the group as well.

Quote: sootyj @ 6th November 2013, 11:29 PM GMT

I think one needs to see the diference between religion and cultic indoctrination.

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How though? It is almost impossible. I have just watched the most horrific YouTube clip on Female Genital Mutilation. It is an evil practice. However, in the countries where it is practiced, it is accepted as a cultural and religious norm. Mothers will subject their daughters (whom they love very much) to it without a second thought.

Surely the key is freedom of information and education. Educate people to make their own choices. Once they have made them, I think we have to accept them. (as long as they do not infringe on the rights of others, as FGM does.) What good would me saying "wearing a burka is bad" do? Would it stop one person doing it?

EDIT: sorry, have basically repeated Sarah's post!

Quote: Jennie @ 6th November 2013, 11:47 PM GMT

How though? It is almost impossible. I have just watched the most horrific YouTube clip on Female Genital Mutilation.

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I used to have to write news articles on FGM for a gynaecology and obstetrics federation. Absolutely gut wrenching stuff, absolutely horrible. But at least in the case of FGM intervention seems to work, in that if local experts go to villages and explain the health problems, there does seem to be a turnaround. A slow one, but something. (According to my reporting anyway...of course there weren't any press releases on all the failures).

Quote: Jennie @ 6th November 2013, 11:47 PM GMT

How though? It is almost impossible. I have just watched the most horrific YouTube clip on Female Genital Mutilation. It is an evil practice. However, in the countries where it is practiced, it is accepted as a cultural and religious norm. Mothers will subject their daughters (whom they love very much) to it without a second thought.

Surely the key is freedom of information and education. Educate people to make their own choices. Once they have made them, I think we have to accept them. (as long as they do not infringe on the rights of others, as FGM does.) What good would me saying "wearing a burka is bad" do? Would it stop one person doing it?

EDIT: sorry, have basically repeated Sarah's post!

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I suppose a religious person will cheerfully chat about your faith and theirs because they are confident in it, want to share it and interested in what you think

A cultist knows their right and will use any means to impress this on others including cheating. Dehumanising uniforms are one of the most powerful weapons of the indoctrinate

I've posted this before I know but, why does anyone need religion?

I've managed quite well for 60+ years without it.

And is there one religion anywhere that does not have 'there is life after death' at its core?

Yes, this is enough reason for us to ban it, at least we have a good practical reason for it now, national security. The French and some others have banned it on other grounds, which they are within their rights to. We are far too weak about this sort of thing, we hang onto our British freedom of choice thing, but the people who wear it don't have that and they all take advantage of us to do want they want! And it has nothing to do with religion, I'm told, as it's not in their koran. It's a cultural practice from arab states which is being wrongly labelled as an islamic practice by many muslims even. They don't even know their own precious religion.

The things are oppressive and medieval like many things from their culture, we have a duty to ban it for their good and ours. It has no place in modern Britain. Just ban it Cameron, grow a pair and ban it. It's better for their women and us. It's used as defiant a symbol of their non-integration into our society and they know it, that's why they cry about it being taken away in France.

One of the things I don't get at all is why do aetheists run to defend the very most medieval of pseudo-religious cultural practices. But get upset by liberal religious practices's of say Jews and Catholics, see the appalling behaviour on the Popes last visit to the UK.

I mean how would you feel if Laura Doyle of the surrendered wife, spoke at your daughter or nieces school. http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/ceriradford/3642351/Surrendered_wives_make_me_squirm/

But for me it comes down to a simple thing. It was very hot this summer and seeing a couple walking around, a guy in shorts and tshirt and a woman in full length funereal cloth, I don't thinkthat's a rational choice. And if it is it is a very strange one.

Quote: Oldrocker @ 7th November 2013, 12:28 AM GMT

I've posted this before I know but, why does anyone need religion?

I've managed quite well for 60+ years without it.

And is there one religion anywhere that does not have 'there is life after death' at its core?

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I think we as humans need answers to multiple questions up on questions, why shouldnt I steal, why do bad people do well, where do I come from and where am I going.

But it's an old fashioned way of thinking, one we've advanced beyond.

It's like trying to drive down the M1 but it's full of people on donkeys, becausethat's how they like to ride.

What about banning the hoodie too. And stockings. That would put an end to the bank robberies!

Ban banks instead Marc surely.

Don't call me SHirley!

Stop dressing like one then

That is a man isn't it. DId they find him then?

Hey, is that Sly and the Family Stone?

Nah, sadly it's just the bin Ladens.

Osama, I believe, is to the right.

Fashion eh?

This year's bondage trousers are all very well but let's call them bondage trousers.

Back in the dreaded 1970s, even in good old blighty, all Muslim people dressed like this.