And as has been pointed out their better paid workers build more cars, that people actually want to drive than the US or UK auto industry.
Though in Germany strikes are almost unheard of because, employers and employees talk to each other. There were none of the crippling strikes and compromises that bedevilled the 1970s in the UK.
Quote: sootyj @ November 1 2013, 9:48 AM GMTThough in Germany strikes are almost unheard of because, employers and employees talk to each other. There were none of the crippling strikes and compromises that bedevilled the 1970s in the UK.
Yeah that bothers me a bit too. I wonder if there's some kind of a cultural thing that makes the British shit at talking to each other and negotiating? An embedded class system thing with resentment on both sides? I don't know.
Although, to be fair, collective bargaining with trade unions was embraced by all political parties in the post-war years and worked very well up until the 1970s when inflation went mental and everybody started shouting at each other.
Quote: sootyj @ November 1 2013, 9:45 AM GMTIf you want to live in the worlds most expensive city and not work, you need to make some unpleasant compromises. The same ones every one else living there who earns an average wage does.
See....this chimes with me because I'm pretty resentful of the amount of work I've had to do to get where I am while I see people with more money rest on their laurels then steam ahead of me, and I guess the same thing could be said about the unemployed in certain situations like this. Expecting something for nothing does make my blood boil, but I naturally tend to get more angry at people who are given money by their parents to skip the hard work rather than the unemployed...probably just because that's what I tend to see in my own life....I do agree that people have to accept hard work, though. I'm just not that knowledgeable about London and it is different in the North where the affordable housing is next door to the expensive housing so it doesn't make such a big difference.
Well it's like that in London, Angel has some of the most horrible estates in England opposite the million pound a flat ones on the other side of the canal.
I suppose the reason I'm probably voting Labour in the next election, is they're making the same hard choices. I dunno less gleefully?
It's the same thing with DLA and Incapacity Benefit which both parties need to change. For too long the decision has depended on guilty, over worked GPs or other medics writing a letter to accompany the form. And it's about time it was a separate independent adudicator, but just you know not ATOS maybe an actual specialist 3rd sector company with government over site.
Quote: sootyj @ November 1 2013, 10:23 AM GMTIt's the same thing with DLA and Incapacity Benefit which both parties need to change. For too long the decision has depended on guilty, over worked GPs or other medics writing a letter to accompany the form. And it's about time it was a separate independent adudicator, but just you know not ATOS maybe an actual specialist 3rd sector company with government over site.
Absolutely not ATOS, I agree. As independent an adudicator as possible. But it's quite a complex matter and doctors can't be left out of it. I know that the consultants of friends of mine on disability get very angry about not being listened to when their patients are appealing decisions etc. It must be annoying to be a consultant and prescribe 'bed rest' or so on, or a pacing programme, and then find that their patients are not allowed to take it. Or if you're treating someone who has mental health problems that are extended by the disability system...I think there are going to be doctors who want a role so that their work isn't being undone by a system with insufficient medical expertise.
I don't think it should be GPs, though. They have enough to do, and I should imagine they would be grateful to have the responsibility taken away.
As an aside, going on the sick was already a pretty unpleasant experience before the Coalition came in and introduced the ridiculous measures we have now. I had to do it once, but only managed a few weeks before the stress led me back to work (where equality law meant the employer wasn't able to get rid of me for being too ill to work...I guess all this depends on whose responsibility you think it is to look after the unwell...) I think the Coalition's trick of making it as stressful and unpleasant as possible to go on sick is the wrong way to go about things. That's how you end up with the scammers who don't care anyway staying on benefits, and those who really need to be off work trying to work anyway or ending up in court on appeal if they have social services or someone looking after them.
The problem with DLA I think has always been; I see my GP I have chronic back pain or depression.
Now he can reccomend therapy, an operation or all sorts of other treatments with a 6 month waiting list or won't ever happen. Or I write a letter and my patient gets, £500 a month extra and maybe a taxi card. Now they're nagging worries about poverty aren't exacerbating their depression, or constant bus journeys their back pain. I'm a nice guy so I do it, that and I'm paid to care for the sick not argue with them.
But repeat this enough times and you start to dig a hole in the budget you can never fill.
But it only works as part of a triage; fair assessment of ability, responsibility to employers to take on disabled applicants and treatment for long term none critical illness on the NHS.
Quote: sootyj @ November 1 2013, 9:48 AM GMTAnd as has been pointed out their better paid workers build more cars, that people actually want to drive than the US or UK auto industry.
Actually, I believe I've heard recently that the UK now manufactures more cars than Germany. Albeit often for German-owned companies.
Quote: sootyj @ November 1 2013, 9:48 AM GMTThough in Germany strikes are almost unheard of because, employers and employees talk to each other. There were none of the crippling strikes and compromises that bedevilled the 1970s in the UK.
Quite. And a much stronger, more level economy all-round as a resuly.
Quote: sglen @ November 1 2013, 9:57 AM GMTYeah that bothers me a bit too. I wonder if there's some kind of a cultural thing that makes the British shit at talking to each other and negotiating? An embedded class system thing with resentment on both sides? I don't know.
It's a very simple mix. The German trade unions have learnt the lessons of their own history and know that they cannot reasonably demand ever-higher wages and working conditions: they have seen the horrors that the former produces.
Meanwhile, amidst the fall-out from the collapse of Empire, much protectionist legislation, and the economic disaster we were after WWII, (large) company bossess here were largely disincentivised from competition and innovation, resting on their laurels and being happy with producing any-old-crap because the consumers had little choice. Thus there was no reason for them to be particularly concilliatory in their operation.
Sadly, whilst there is now competitiveness in most markets, our trade unions are largely as stubborn as they always were - albeit more restrained by legislation - and bosses can still be stubborn and arrogant in response.
It's very easy to forget that many european countries and their economies, including Germany, were all but obliterated by the war, and they essentially had to restart their countries from the ground up, with the benefit of hindsight of an industrialising, truly globally-trading world economy (see also: high speed rail). We didn't have that, and have trudged on, sticking plasters over the cracks without any reform in underlying attitudes.
This contrast in industrial relations is covered quite interestingly in the recent BBC Two documentary Das Auto: The Germans, Their Cars, And Us.
Quote: sglen @ November 1 2013, 9:57 AM GMTExpecting something for nothing does make my blood boil, but I naturally tend to get more angry at people who are given money by their parents to skip the hard work rather than the unemployed...
That's really only a tiny minority though, who truly are just handed money without having to do any work. Plenty of people have the help and support of parents or wider family, and yes some may be able to skip some of the hardest graft that the rest of us can't, but a vanishing minority - essentially just the children of the super-rich - really do put in literally no work whatsoever. I'm also sure many more privileged people do work hard, but in different ways.
I think the differences between German and British labour relations were all down to differences in their Governments. Parents' behaviour tends to influence the behaviour of the child although the parents who set a bad example will blame the child for his actions as much as do the parents who set a good example.
Inflation was held down to some extent in Germany in the 1970s. Ours went to above 20%. There, conservation measures were seen as the best form of energy from the 1970s. Here, Jonathon Porritt, now Lord, was being ridiculed as a member of the "open toed sandal brigade". Little was done until the 1990s.
There, unions had a real say on company boards. Here they never did. And AV voting was a demonstrable improvement to a Nazi regime. In that way, Germany went overnight from having a diabolical political system to one that was better than ours. Here the electoral system was exactly the same as it is 68 years later.
Quote: sootyj @ November 1 2013, 10:52 AM GMTNow he can reccomend therapy, an operation or all sorts of other treatments with a 6 month waiting list or won't ever happen. Or I write a letter and my patient gets, £500 a month extra and maybe a taxi card.
Basically, the NHS is shit; our attitudes are shit; everything needs to be wiped out and start again afresh.
The NHS has at it's core incredibly strong values, good people and a great ethos.
It just really needs pruning back, hand over walk in clinics to Tesco, ask how Iceland has the happiest employees even though they're on minimun wage.
Bring in the market but keep an eye on it.
Quote: sootyj @ November 1 2013, 1:59 PM GMTThe NHS has at it's core incredibly strong values, good people and a great ethos.
It just really needs pruning back, hand over walk in clinics to Tesco, ask how Iceland has the happiest employees even though they're on minimun wage.
Bring in the market but keep an eye on it.
Quite agree.
It will happen, of course. Just a question of whether it happens too late. If it's not already?
Quote: sootyj @ November 1 2013, 1:59 PM GMTask how Iceland has the happiest employees even though they're on minimun wage.
That's a very easy one.
The lower the salary, the nicer the people. Not because the salary makes them nice but because nice people put up with anything and don't realise that's what they are doing.
I rose to an average salary but not higher. In some ways, I'm pleased with that - about what it says. 
Quote: Aaron @ November 1 2013, 1:49 PM GMTThat's really only a tiny minority though, who truly are just handed money without having to do any work. Plenty of people have the help and support of parents or wider family, and yes some may be able to skip some of the hardest graft that the rest of us can't, but a vanishing minority - essentially just the children of the super-rich - really do put in literally no work whatsoever. I'm also sure many more privileged people do work hard, but in different ways.
It may well be a tiny minority. I have only anecdotal evidence, and I'm happy to accept that means nothing. I think it's just one of the emotional things that gets us isn't it - the whole "it's not fair!" thing. I'm partly interested in the different ways a Guardian reader like myself would differ to a Daily Mail reader in the people we are most likely to blame.
Saying that, both sides have a little bit of a evidence. For example, media jobs (being very competitive) are far more likely now to go to a middle class person than a working class one compared with the 1970s. That's largely down to the fact that there is more demand than supply for those jobs so employers can easily draft in labour for free on the promise of "work experience" which might get you on the first rung of the ladder. Obviously, there is only one type of person that can afford to take this opportunity - those who have enough money to do so - which effectively locks some people out of the industry.
On the other hand, I'm sure there are just as many people who refuse to work in jobs that they do not find "suitable", in which case I can well imagine the Daily Mail readers have quite the same reaction I have about internships.
Overall, I'm willing to accept it's a more emotional than data-heavy subject, though. Benefit fraud has been proven to be miniscule and I'm sure there are fewer people than I think skipping some of the stages I've been through.
Interesting choice of example: most of the people I know in the media - in fact, all of the people I know particularly well - are from working class backgrounds.
Oh, actually - all but one.
My few brushes with working for the serious media, I'm always amazed at how genuinely offended people are. If you say no I can't come into your meeting, take your skype call or produce dozens of speculative pages of work.
Because it might interfere with my real job, the one that pays the rent.
It's like, you only really love us if you donate hours of time to unpaid.
And as for apprenticeships and internships, even the Telegraph got enervated at people actually auctioning the bloody things off