Sitcom trivia help please Page 2

Quote: Aaron @ September 28 2013, 10:28 PM BST

I think there's a difference there in that, say, Sir Sidney Ruff-Diamond (Carry On... Up The Khyber) is very definitely a character, whereas they Lyon/Daniels clan were very much themselves, based on their whole family structure and (I believe?) many real-life experiences, simply with comic exaggeration.

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It expanded on real life events but was scripted. They are more themselves than some examples, yes, although acted out versions. I am not very familiar with The Osbournes but that, arguably, is more real life than script. I would therefore see a clear distinction between those two. The Lyons weren't reality show.

Your point is interesting because it gets the mind thinking about other grey areas. Sid James and Tony Hancock both displayed elements of their own personalities in their scripted characters. True Sid was an inveterate gambler and Tony had neuroses. In some other respects, their stage characters were distinct. But in Tony's case, there is often an uneasy feeling that Galton and Simpson were getting too close to him in their writing for comfort. It was almost as if they were asking him to address his problems via the acting.

The absence of a very clear distinction between the real life personality and the character persona was accentuated in several famous examples, including Sid, Tony and Hattie, in the way that their scripted character was consistent across programmes, ie Sid is largely the same Sid in Hancock and the Carry Ons. Terry Scott is often the same Terry in the things that he did. June Whitfield is very much the character June for decades in various programmes although she is more distinct early on in The Glums. And one gets the impression in interviews that actress June and real June are virtually identical. That's different again.

The Cosby Show has a guy called Huxtable but how different is he from a guy called Cosby? I don't think the title merely indicates it is principally his vehicle. The viewer is intended to experience a blurring of the two. Arguably, there was a programme in which the character should have had the same name as the actor.

Interesting. On The Osbournes, that was very clearly set-up and marketed as a real-life documentary series. Not sure what if anything was staged or 'accentuated' for camera, but it was ostensibly reality, not a scripted entertainment format.

I think the big difference between the Lyons and the Hancock gang (etc) is that the Lyons whilst, yes, scripted, was entirely conceived around them as a real life family, and played out based on those real life relationships. It was them, being themselves - just for comedy value.

The Hancocks of this world however start off as scripted comedies in their own right. The best writers (including Galton & Simpson) play to the strengths of their actors, and I think many of the best comedies include elements of the actors' real personality in the character on screen... but it's still very much a character. Taking Sid as an example, it's well documented that he was a drinker and gambler, but he wasn't the scheming crook 'Sidney James' of early Hancock's Half Hour any more than he was the perpetual do-gooder of late Citizen James. But all iterations of the character include elements of him, and that's part of what makes them so damned good. IMO.

As for later works, well, some performers simply delight in creating the one pitch-perfect comic persona and then replicating it across the decades, with tweaks here and there. If you booked, say, Frankie Howerd, you knew you were getting Frankie Howerd in your show; not Lurcio, not Ali Oopla, but Frankie Howerd in a costume.

But you're right. Grey areas.

Quote: Aaron @ September 28 2013, 11:23 PM BST

Interesting. On The Osbournes, that was very clearly set-up and marketed as a real-life documentary series. Not sure what if anything was staged or 'accentuated' for camera, but it was ostensibly reality, not a scripted entertainment format.

I think the big difference between the Lyons and the Hancock gang (etc) is that the Lyons whilst, yes, scripted, was entirely conceived around them as a real life family, and played out based on those real life relationships. It was them, being themselves - just for comedy value.

The Hancocks of this world however start off as scripted comedies in their own right. The best writers (including Galton & Simpson) play to the strengths of their actors, and I think many of the best comedies include elements of the actors' real personality in the character on screen... but it's still very much a character. Taking Sid as an example, it's well documented that he was a drinker and gambler, but he wasn't the scheming crook 'Sidney James' of early Hancock's Half Hour any more than he was the perpetual do-gooder of late Citizen James. But all iterations of the character include elements of him, and that's part of what makes them so damned good. IMO.

As for later works, well, some performers simply delight in creating the one pitch-perfect comic persona and then replicating it across the decades, with tweaks here and there. If you booked, say, Frankie Howerd, you knew you were getting Frankie Howerd in your show; not Lurcio, not Ali Oopla, but Frankie Howerd in a costume.

But you're right. Grey areas.

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Yes, this is definitely worth a little more comment. Essentially, I agree. Your first paragraph accurately identifies the importance of the starting point. The concept. In your second, you are in many ways talking about development. I am sure that at some point G and S were thinking specifically of Tony. The writing adapted "towards" him. That as you know was a part of the problem. He felt increasingly that he should go it alone. The Bedsitter was almost the perfect metaphor for where he had required the writing to send him.

I don't know about Sid. I thought there might have been a hint of fraud. I heard that he could have been on the run from the South African authorities for that reason. There was also a girl involved? You might know.

I take the point about Frankie Howerd. People knew what they were getting. Which leads on to the enigma that was Kenneth Williams. You sort of got every character with Ken and yet each one was unmistakably him. Simultaneously - and not without irony - none of them were the real Kenneth Williams. Tony, Ken, Sid.......all different and all wonderful in my opinion. I will leave it there so it goes back to the OP question.

Quote: Aaron @ September 28 2013, 10:51 PM BST

Ah! Yes, well remembered lofthouse. She did indeed.

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Wasn't she Hat in Sykes though ?

She was. And he was Eric. Hasn't that been mentioned? I thought it had. If not, both Sykes And A... and Sykes can go on the list!

Richard/Rik Mayall as Richie in Bottom and in Filthy, Rich & Catflap as well as Rick in The Young Ones
Paddy McGuinness as Paddy in Phoenix Nights

Quote: MTpromises @ September 28 2013, 7:55 PM BST

Bless This House - Sid James/Sid Abbott... checked IMDB to be sure I was right about this and it turns out half the characters he played are named Sid or Sidney

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And Sally Geeson plays Sally Abbott

And in Two In Clover Sid James played Sid Turner and Victor Spinetti as Vic Evans

In Extras, Keith Chegwin appears as Alfie in When The Whistle Blows but has to be renamed Keith because he can't grasp the concept that he is playing a character with a different name to his.

Both Father, Dear Father and The Many Wives Of Patrick starred Patrick Cargill Patrick.

Richard O'Sullivan in Alcock And Gander and Father, Dear Father.

Quote: Horseradish @ September 28 2013, 11:38 PM BST

Which leads on to the enigma that was Kenneth Williams. You sort of got every character with Ken and yet each one was unmistakably him. Simultaneously - and not without irony - none of them were the real Kenneth Williams.

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There's an interesting description of him in John Lahr's Joe Orton biography.

Quote: lofthouse @ September 28 2013, 6:07 PM BST

Harry H Corbett played Harold

Fulton McKay kept his surname in Porridge

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Of course! How could I forget 'Arold!!!

Quote: Horseradish @ September 28 2013, 6:14 PM BST

What a fantastic question. I suggest Sykes.

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Thank you for both!

Quote: whatkindoffoolami @ September 28 2013, 6:50 PM BST

Miranda - Miranda Hart
Sean's Show - Sean Hughes

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Nice one! But are they sitcoms in the strict sense?

Quote: lofthouse @ September 28 2013, 6:53 PM BST

Don't forget Bill Kerr!

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Thank you - perhaps I should have said TV sitcoms, which "Hancock" was, but that's HHH on the radio.

Quote: Rose2010 @ September 28 2013, 7:01 PM BST

Can't think of UK examples but immediately realized there are many US examples starting with Bob Newhart who played psychologist Bob Hartley and Mary Tyle Moore who played news producer Mary Richards.

It would be interesting to know if it's more common in one place than the other and also if it is more common among stand up comedians like Newhart or not and whether its most common when the name of the character is also the name of the show...

Silly speculations for a lazy Saturday!

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There are many US ones.

Quote: lofthouse @ September 28 2013, 7:04 PM BST

Lucille Ball

Oh, and Woody Harelson(spl) in Cheers

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US

Quote: Gordon Bennett @ September 28 2013, 7:14 PM BST

Seinfeld
Everybody Loves Raymond
Roseanne
Home Improvement
Two & A Half Men

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US

Quote: MTpromises @ September 28 2013, 7:55 PM BST

Bless This House - Sid James/Sid Abbott... checked IMDB to be sure I was right about this and it turns out half the characters he played are named Sid or Sidney

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I think you are right there!

Quote: lofthouse @ September 28 2013, 7:56 PM BST

Lee and Tim in Not Going Out

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Nice one! How did I miss that?!

Quote: MTpromises @ September 28 2013, 8:04 PM BST

Curb Your Enthusiasm - Larry
Night Court - Harry Anderson/Harry Stone
Grandma's House - Simon
Barney Miller - Ron Glass/Det. Ron Harris

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Thanks for the UK one Grandma's House - Simon

Quote: Horseradish @ September 28 2013, 9:34 PM BST

Plus Ben Lyon/Barbara Lyon/Richard Lyon/Bebe Daniels

"We were locked up safe and warm from the snow / With 'Life with the Lyons' on the radio . . ."

(Al Stewart - Post World War Two Blues)

"Unfinished Music No. 2: Life with the Lions"

(John and Yoko - Album title that was a parody on the title of the show)

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Yup! Was better known as a radio show but did make it to TV.

Quote: Aaron @ September 28 2013, 10:28 PM BST

I think there's a difference there in that, say, Sir Sidney Ruff-Diamond (Carry On... Up The Khyber) is very definitely a character, whereas they Lyon/Daniels clan were very much themselves, based on their whole family structure and (I believe?) many real-life experiences, simply with comic exaggeration.

In answer to the OP, it was very common in the 'old days'. Almost more often than not at times, particularly in the Carry On films and similar.

Often because the stars were real stars in and of themselves, often playing more or less the same character in every production. The likes of George Formby, Norman Wisdom and Arthur Askey spring to mind. But those are mostly film roles (although all had TV series).

So, sitcoms. Terry & June's been mentioned, but not Happy Ever After.

Yes, thank you for that - I should have mentioned TV shows, which is what "Hancock" was.

Didn't Moira Lister, Andrée Melly and Hattie Jacques also keep their own names? Although I think they were only in the radio series - presumably Hercules was thinking more of television sitcoms.

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Quote: lofthouse @ September 28 2013, 10:47 PM BST

Hattie's character was called Griselda Pugh I think.

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You beat me to it! But hoping to not sound a pedant, the spelling should be Grizelda*, although I know on some web sites it is incorrect.

* Backed up by the "Hancock Bible" Roger Wilmut's Tony Hancock Artiste.

Quote: Aaron @ September 28 2013, 10:51 PM BST

Ah! Yes, well remembered lofthouse. She did indeed.

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Yes, Hancock's erstwhile "secretary" and short lived love interest, where even Sid fell in love with her in "Cyrano De Hancock" - one of the funniest of the radio series, where Sid confides in Hancock his feelings leaving Hancock in hysterics. Very, very funny.

Quote: Oldrocker @ September 29 2013, 12:23 AM BST

Wasn't she Hat in Sykes though ?

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She certainly was - thank you!

Quote: Aaron @ September 29 2013, 12:34 AM BST

She was. And he was Eric. Hasn't that been mentioned? I thought it had. If not, both Sykes And A... and Sykes can go on the list!

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Certainly can!

Quote: fustidious @ September 29 2013, 1:49 AM BST

Richard/Rik Mayall as Richie in Bottom and in Filthy, Rich & Catflap as well as Rick in The Young Ones
Paddy McGuinness as Paddy in Phoenix Nights

And Sally Geeson plays Sally Abbott

And in Two In Clover Sid James played Sid Turner and Victor Spinetti as Vic Evans

In Extras, Keith Chegwin appears as Alfie in When The Whistle Blows but has to be renamed Keith because he can't grasp the concept that he is playing a character with a different name to his.

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Yup, very good, and with regards to the last para. - this was quite common in US sitcoms. Tony Banza was Tony Banta in Taxi because apparently he couldn't come in on cue with a characters name.

Quote: Aaron @ September 29 2013, 1:58 AM BST

Both Father, Dear Father and The Many Wives Of Patrick starred Patrick Cargill Patrick.

Richard O'Sullivan in Alcock And Gander and Father, Dear Father.

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Yes! Thank you.

PHEW! I think I have replied to everyone!? I didn't realise my little enquiry would get so much response!

Thank you everyone!

Quote: Hercules Grytpype Thynne @ September 29 2013, 10:14 AM BST

PHEW! I think I have replied to everyone!?

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No; you didn't ask me how John Lahr describes the real Kenny Williams, but it's irrelevant to your inquiry, so nae borr.

You seem to have missed all three of The Goodies. And Jennifer Saunders played Jennifer in Girls on Top.

Quote: lofthouse @ September 28 2013, 6:07 PM BST

Harry H Corbett played Harold

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I must question this. Whilst Harry can be short for Harold, Harry H Corbett's name was just Harry, as far as I am aware. Can anyone find anything saying otherwise? I think there's a good likelihood the character name was based on his, but it wasn't exactly exactly the same.

Some more:
Hugh Lloyd as Hugh 'Hughie' Wagstaff in Lord Tramp
Harry Worth in How's Your Father?, Oh Happy Band! and, arguably, My Name Is Harry Worth.
Michael Williams as Mike in A Fine Romance, maybe?
The Goodies, although into slightly grey area again.
Lee Evans - So What Now?.
Clive Merrison as Clive Bannister in The Labours Of Erica.
Jim Davidson as Jim London in Up The Elephant And Round The Castle and Home James!.
Peter Copley in the 1971 You're Only Young Twice.

(I've only thought about the major characters here. Many, many other people who played one-off and minor characters are given their own names.)

Slightly off-topic, but sort-of interestingly I noted that Sean Lock's 15 Storeys High character was Sean on radio, but became Vince on TV.

Oh, another grey one: Julian Clary in Terry And Julian.

Quote: Kenneth @ September 29 2013, 12:47 PM BST

No; you didn't ask me how John Lahr describes the real Kenny Williams, but it's irrelevant to your inquiry, so nae borr.

You seem to have missed all three of The Goodies. And Jennifer Saunders played Jennifer in Girls on Top.

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Go on then, I'll buy it as you are clearly champing at the bit to tell me what John Lahr said , and I am genuinely interested.

Although I didn't miss The Goodies and JS, (Thas' woi oi wassa arskin') thank you for those two!

Quote: Aaron @ September 29 2013, 12:53 PM BST

I must question this. Whilst Harry can be short for Harold, Harry H Corbett's name was just Harry, as far as I am aware. Can anyone find anything saying otherwise? I think there's a good likelihood the character name was based on his, but it wasn't exactly exactly the same.

Some more:
Hugh Lloyd as Hugh 'Hughie' Wagstaff in Lord Tramp
Harry Worth in How's Your Father?, Oh Happy Band! and, arguably, My Name Is Harry Worth.
Michael Williams as Mike in A Fine Romance, maybe?
The Goodies, although into slightly grey area again.
Lee Evans - So What Now?.
Clive Merrison as Clive Bannister in The Labours Of Erica.
Jim Davidson as Jim London in Up The Elephant And Round The Castle and Home James!.
Peter Copley in the 1971 You're Only Young Twice.

Good memory!

(I've only thought about the major characters here. Many, many other people who played one-off and minor characters are given their own names.)

Slightly off-topic, but sort-of interestingly I noted that Sean Lock's 15 Storeys High character was Sean on radio, but became Vince on TV.

Oh, another grey one: Julian Clary in Terry And Julian.

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Dunno what happened there with the smilies - meant to say Good Memory!

Quote: Hercules Grytpype Thynne @ September 29 2013, 4:13 PM BST

Go on then, I'll buy it as you are clearly champing at the bit to tell me what John Lahr said , and I am genuinely interested.

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I can't remember what he wrote about Kenneth Williams, as I've not read the book for a few years. But it was exquisitely crafted.